An Extraordinary Love Story for Extraordinary Times

An extraordinary love story for extraordinary times .. Joey Mead King shares her experiences as her husband transitions from male to female in this amazing and heartwarming tale of unconditional love.

"We’ve been together for 10 years, and I’m not fazed by how Ian, Angie, my wife, my partner, my soulmate—all these titles—I’m not fazed by how you will look. Nothing. I don’t see it. I just see that I love you. And that’s how it’s always been."


"If we have to break a boundary to inspire someone else to do the same, sure man, follow suit. But we’re doing our own thing, because it works for us. And I think that my partner is beautiful. And she, he, should live, his, her life, whatever way she feels." ~ Joey Mead King

Sometimes the King is a Woman: The Joey Mead King Tell-All

Joey Mead King talks to Rogue about what it’s really like to be in her shoes in this new chapter in her married life.

Interview by Paolo Reyes, Jerome Gomez, and Pam Quiñones

This story originally appeared in Rogue’s July 2016 Issue.

In an exclusive interview after her husband, Ian King, came out in the open as the trans woman Angelina Mead King, the top model Joey Mead King talks to Rogue about what it’s really like to be in her shoes in this new chapter in her married life, and how the inner Joey measured up to the tough veneer the public became accustomed to.


On the evening of July 2, 2016, a Saturday, the lifestyle and fashion set were abuzz about a certain Instagram account that went by the handle @hailtothe_queen_. Screengrabs of the account and its accompanying pictures spread fast via whatsapp and Viber messages, and after a few back and forths, the social media savvy among us were convinced our early conclusions proved true: Ian King, car racing aficionado, automotive businessman, heir to the Victoria Court motel empire, just came out as a trans woman.

It was no fake account created by a hater, nor was it a prank from King. In the pictures, the rock star of the local car world, a definitive alpha to those who first encounter him, is wearing long colored tresses, purple nail polish, and killer pumps with four-inch heels—and has apparently been sporting them for years. His wife, the model and host Joey Mead King, would be seen posing happily by his side, beaming with joy and confidence in some of the pictures of King in feminine garb. That Mead is behind him on this one is clearly an understatement. As soon as the news got out, an outpouring of messages of support, respect, and encouragement came flooding in for the two, from different parts of the world. “But how does she really feel?” some comment boxes under Facebook posts reluctantly asked. Well, Rogue also wanted to know.

So we asked Pam Quiñones, editor of our sister publication, L’Officiel Manila, who did a shoot and story on Mead in its April 2016 issue, to help us get an interview with the top model. Less than two days after, we got Mead’s yes. And by Tuesday, Rogue, together with Quiñones, would sit down with her in the spacious home that the Kings had moved into in the last couple of months.

After passing two of King’s cars in the driveway, we made our way into the couple’s mansion and found Mead plopped on a sofa in the living room, surrounded by various Moroccan accoutrements she’s collected, wearing a soft, cream blouse, and jeans. There’s a welcoming calmness to her—like that of the pool we spy through the French doors—and a serene joy.

She made us choose where we wanted to do the interview, and we chose the dining room where we each picked our own chairs, expecting maybe frugal answers, maybe guardedness, from what she described in her early WhatsApp messages with Quiñones as a “mini-interview.” It didn’t turn out so mini, of course. We had close to two hours with Mead, and more than 12,000 words to happily deal with. We prepared questions, but most of them we wouldn’t even be able to ask. Because we didn’t need to. She brought it all up, the details, the anecdotes, requiring only a bit of nudging from us, unfinished phrases, nods of affirmation. This was a woman finally free to tell her story, we thought, hers and her now wife Angelina, the Ian she married, her lover, her best friend—titles don’t matter now—and their unconditional love for each other, the hiding they had to go through, the demons that needed to be exorcised, and their beautiful tale of discovery. She was at turns honest, unsure, ecstatic, vulnerable, tough, accepting, and—this is what we noticed we kept saying—astounding. It could only happen to the two of them, this act of courage and strength. She with her hard-knock beginnings, an episode with an abusive lover, striking it out on her own at 15, abandoned by her father. Ian with his strength, his creativity, his need for speed and all the risk-taking it embodies, and the passing of his father that rocked his world last year. They needn’t worry, we thought, blazing this trail. They’ve been cut out for this.

For months we had been toying with the idea of putting one of our early cover girls back on the face of the magazine to mark its 100th issue. And the universe couldn’t have done any better than Joey Mead King, who first appeared on it eight years ago, in June 2008, the Philippine flag painted on her naked body, causing a furor in its wake. Here she is again, wearing a different flag altogether, still that of a combination of peace and bravery, but this time—and we’re calling it—leaving a trail of inspiration and a universal sense of pride.


PAOLO REYES: How have the past two days been?

JOEY MEAD KING: The amount of love and support is insane. We went to our dad’s mass today which was in our uncle’s home, and [we were in the presence of] the older generation of Kings, and so [before that] Ian was asking, “What should I wear? I’m not gonna wear a dress!” I go, “But I think you should still wear what you want to express, ’cause you can now.” So he wore his kitten heels and his shirt and, like, natural makeup—which makes me very proud because, in the beginning, his makeup was really bad and I had to go in there. [laughs] I’m always trying to educate and say that natural is always going to be [best]. The best makeup is an enhancement, what you wear is an enhancement, an expression of you. And it’s funny, because the beginning of life in [the] transgender world, everything is like femininity! [You] must be like this! You must have breasts! It’s like an explosion of femininity. “I am woman!” And I’m really very proud to see that my partner has embraced just being natural with what you have, working with what you’ve got, not having to exceed, but still be who you feel you are.

So this afternoon was nice—to see the titas and titos be a little bit like, “Wow, we’re happy for you” and “More power to you” and “We love you.” Because at first, when Ian arrived, he was nervous. [Whispers] “It’s alright, it’s just your estrogen.” [laughs]

But maybe it’s because we’re still together, and I think that makes it more astounding for others. I’m not sure. Ian asked me this morning “Why do you think [the reaction was so positive]?” Actually I haven’t pondered it. I’m just like, wow, Manila has blown me over. I thought they were going to crucify us. I was ready. Let’s do this! Armor-ready, you know? And the family and my friends were ready. All Ian did was open his Instagram. That’s it. Just opened it. [That Saturday] He was with his mom for breakfast, and mom was like, “Just do it already.” And then, he said, “I should just talk to my wife.” And I was like, “Fuck it, just do it. I don’t care.” [laughs] And then from that, the day was nice—and then later, later in the day, and the next morning, the phone was going nuts. But how crazy-beautiful . . .

PR: That’s a good description.

JMK: Just unbelievable. I just had to take breaks sometimes from everybody. And then just the whole news feed! God, thank goodness—thank goodness the media used a nice photo. [laughs] And then my partner also wanted to post some things from the past, and I was just, “Put it out there.” It just feels so raw and ready, and I’m very happy watching from the sidelines of everything. Astounding. Are you guys astounded?

PAM QUIÑONES: Up until now . . .

PR: I didn’t know the full extent of it. I couldn’t believe it initially but, since I heard about it, good for him that he finally went public about it. It takes a lot of courage.

PQ: I was telling Paolo how amazing it was that Ian was able to do it now and didn’t wait till he was, like, 60? 50? That must be such a great feeling. I heard about it from [designer] Martin Bautista—and you know the gay men are so happy. Martin messaged me, and he was like, “Sis, did you know about this?” I said I heard about something, but that no one really talked about it, and he goes, “My god . . . how amazing.” Then I said, “But how amazing that Joey is so fair, all the way.” And that’s when I was checking Instagram na rin. Wow, this is crazy.

JMK: Looking at the clues [laughs]. Like—why is Joey in Miami Pride?

PQ: Oh I didn’t even know! When was Miami Pride?

JMK: This year. I went to go visit the US because Ian is opening businesses there. I said “Oh, we were too early for L.A. Pride. We can catch Miami pride.” It was kinda boring though.

PR: Really?

JMK: Not as cool as L.A. Pride. L.A. Pride is pretty bangin’. [laughs]

PR: So you’ve been to more than a few Pride marches.

JMK: Many Prides. We’ve had this for as long as we’ve been together. When the movie The Danish Girl came out, it was like, oh my god, this is our movie. Not exactly, but I saw the trailer last year and I was like, oh my god . . . so when you said . . .

PQ: When I said [about putting Alicia Vikander on the L’Officiel cover] . . .

JMK: I said, “I love Alicia Vikander! Thank you.” And she won Best Actress. [It felt like] I won best actress! [laughs] She’s my girl.

When Ian and I started dating—this is funny—maybe two months into the relationship, I noticed in the dirty clothes, in the hamper, there was women’s underwear! Is this my underwear? Who’s underwear is this? And then I was calling my friend in Singapore and I was like “Anj, uhm, I dunno, but I found women’s underwear in the hamper . . . and I don’t think he’s seeing anyone. Maybe it’s like an ex-girlfriend’s or something, and the househelp had misplaced it.” She goes, “Just talk to him.” How do I bring that up?

And then it was so funny, a day or two later, Ian tells me, “I want to share something with you, and I’m really ashamed about it: I like wearing women’s underwear.”

“What?! Thank God! I thought it was another woman! [laughs] Oh my god. That’s it?”

“Yeah,”—because he’s really shy—“I wanted to tell you because I want to have a relationship with you and I love you.”

“Oh my god, that’s okay. That’s fine. That’s so cool.” And then that’s when I said, “What else have you worn?”

“That’s all I’ve worn.”

“Really? Oh my god. So you’ve never worn a dress before? I could totally get a dress for you!” And then that just opened up everything, like a whole different world. This was when Manila didn’t have La Senza, so I went to Rustan’s with Ian and we just went to the lingerie department. They had these brands and we’re walking, and it’s kinda like the scene from Danish Girl where Eddie Redmayne feels that excitement. We’re walking around Rustan’s arm in arm, and Ian goes, “My heart . . . my heart is beating so much.” I’m like, “You okay?”

And that’s when I realized—this is intense. I said, “Let’s go, just touch, we’ll go look for a bra for you. Just take a look, just look. Don’t care about what anybody says, just look.” And we ended up going to Debenhams and Ian getting, first, a camisole, and then a petticoat skirt—and from then, my creative side [just sprang]. “Let’s put some makeup on!” And so I was photographer, stylist, makeup artist. Ian became my work of art!

So it was fun, something we’d do, and this went on for a few years. This was the cross-dressing stage. And maybe it was my ignorance, maybe denial. I just thought that’s just what it’s going to be: we’re just going to travel and cross-dress. But, yeah, that was not where it was going to stop. When my father-in-law was unwell in Germany, that was about three years ago, that’s when things started changing. When Ian was saying, “I want to live my life like this regularly.”

And I said, “What . . . ? [laughs] But this is just fun, this is something for you and I, right? . . . No, I can’t . . . I can’t . . . ”

This is when I started having difficulty as a partner. I could hear his pain. I did understand—but there was a part of me that was like, wait, where are you going? So I had to deal with a lot of my own abandonment [issues]. The journey began a completely new chapter, and we bumped heads a lot. But I know and understand: once you make your path, you gotta go ahead with it. So for me, as a partner, you can’t stop that. You can’t stop a charging train. So, you jump along. I’m going in for the ride. It’s gonna be a roller coaster, but I’m gonna ride it until the wheels fall off—because I have fought hard for our love. We’ve been together for 10 years, and I’m not fazed by how Ian, Angie, my wife, my partner, my soulmate—all these titles—I’m not fazed by how you will look. Nothing. I don’t see it. I just see that I love you. And that’s how it’s always been.

Our worry was that Ian was going to start a different life in America because there’s more acceptance there. That was the difficulty, having to travel, having to hide, and this was just too much. You’re now leaving the dynamics of us, and I have to adapt to this new life.

But because of this coming out, I feel that there’s no more barriers. I think the barriers have been broken by the unconventional love that we have for each other. So this is new territory. Everybody wants to put everyone in a category, or a title. We don’t have a category. I’ve never been traditional. And Ian’s not traditional. So that’s also the essence of why we work. Either we make our own box, or we just completely walk outside the box forever and that’s just actually a nicer way of seeing things and living your life. Why would you want to put yourself in a box when, my god, you have one life to live,’di ba? Why don’t you just go out there and just enjoy the fruits of life?

And somehow, with this whole craziness, it’s just made it possible. I’m astounded by our country, that people are so accepting. Us Pinoys, we always have an opinion on something, and there will be all these opinions. [But there are people who say] “But you know what, they love each other” and “What can you do?” That’s why we’ve been using the hashtag, “#loveislove.”

PQ: That’s what everyone is saying.

JMK: When you love someone, it’s so painful. It makes you realize how important and how much they mean to you. And I will fight for us. Because I don’t see anything wrong with it. If we have to break a boundary to inspire someone else to do the same, sure man, follow suit. But we’re doing our own thing, because it works for us. And I think that my partner is beautiful. And she, he, should live, his, her life, whatever way she feels.

PQ: Of course.

JMK: I didn’t realize . . . god, are other people not able to live their true selves? Is that why we’re getting so much appreciation? But, wow, I definitely had a lot of fear when this came out. All fear is gone.

PR: I’m sure you’ve had to deal with your own demons.

JMK: Oh my goodness, not only did I have to fight for this, but I had to fight myself. And I think it’s when you start to get into yourself when you think, “What is the bigger picture here? What is wrong here? What is happening here?” And you think, “Oh my god, what’s the big bloody deal? I don’t care what other people think!” I’ve been in this industry where everybody has to have a say in how you look and how you age and what you’re wearing and who you’re with, [how] you’re not white enough, you’re not dark enough, you’re not chinita enough.” And I’m like stop! Stop already! Right? And maybe because I’m older that’s just how I feel. Just stop already. Just stop the noise. There’s too much noise in life. Let’s meditate. [laughs]

JEROME GOMEZ: Was that why you were drawn to meditation?

JMK: Yes. Silence the mind, open the heart. And it’s worked for me. Because everything was just too noisy. You just listen to your inner demons keep talking to you, and then you just have to separate. Okay, let’s be respectful to the voices in my head, let’s listen to the logical me, let’s listen to the emotional me, let’s listen to the essential me, let’s put them all together and shed some light on this shit! [laughs] Because I just wanna be happy. What I learned from meditation and retreats and a whole bunch of personal healing is that we forget to be children. [Children] don’t see things like we do when we get older. We end up getting jaded, sarcastic, and all our personal problems in our lives cloud our judgment. But children just see joy. And I think sometimes we have to go back to feeling like a child.

I rode a bike last week. [laughs] Just biked around the village. Me and my silver helmet! It’s silly but it gives me joy. And moments like that feel like, yeah, life is so awesome. Something small like a good 15 minutes going around the village. We just forget to be childlike. This adulting stuff is overrated.

JG: Did you, at one point, ever regret introducing her to dresses, and—

JMK: No. I have no regret. I actually feel honoured that it was me [who he chose to do it with]. I actually feel like it’s meant to be, that it was going to be me to introduce her to a whole different life that she never had when she was younger. There was no one else she could talk to. Ian was a single dad. So the inner mother in me wanted to take on that role: mother, sister, or just your girlfriend. I wasn’t regretful of it. The only thing I regret was just the thoughts of what other people would think.

JG: Did he care as much about what other people thought?

JMK: [He is from the] Car industry! [laughs] Testosterone! “Pare, tignan mo pare ‘tong kotse.” [laughs] I’m exaggerating. But, yeah. We had a cars-and-coffee Sunday and all the boys—oh my god, they all came. It was so cool. They were chatting. “Pare, whatever. Ian, Angie, whatever. Got your back, bro.” [laughs] And then they’d go back to what they normally talk about. “Tell me the different parts of the car.” “You didn’t tell me about this blah blah blah.” “So, I was wondering if you could fix the so and so engine of the BM.” It goes back to business, to what they know. But yeah, I enjoyed cars-and-coffee that morning.

JG: But how does he respond to all of these expressions of support?

JMK: Like a giddy teenager. So happy. And then, I think we both have just been radiating. “It’s that easy? Damn.” He’s really appreciative of the full support of family and friends and people we don’t know. I get messages from people, like a woman who is also in the same situation. “My partner is trans and it’s been difficult for me but I really wish I had your strength, Ms. Joey.” And it’s like, [inhales] how can I explain to someone that I don’t know [the answers]? Meditate? [laughs] How do I say that we were together for 10 years, so it’s 10 years training? For both sides. And now we’re in transition, so my responsibility in our relationship is to also transition and adapt to the different phases of transition.

JG: When did you decide to jump and go full-force with his journey?

JMK: It’s been several years. I jumped from the beginning. When he was cross-dressing, I jumped with it. And then four years ago, when dad was sick, that was wavering times of, Wait, wait, I don’t know what I’m gonna do. But I jumped on it from the beginning and there is just something about, I don’t know—my tenacity?—I don’t know what it is. But I will not give it up. And it was hard, because I’m pulling everything in the relationship. I’m pulling down things, I’m pulling friends, I’m pushing friends. Until I was able to calm my mind and just break open my heart. Because it’s already open for Ian. But what happens in transitioning, you break it open for the whole world. Sometimes we just keep things for our own personal friends, family, that’s it. And then to share it to everybody else? I think it’s these last few months that I’ve been able to do that. Before, I was quite guarded because I’m so protective of it. And I was scared of what people would say. Will they hinder Ian’s work? Will it hinder my work? Will they say, “Joey’s a beard”? [laughs]

PR: Are you still scared?

JMK: No more. I stopped being scared these last few months. I’m just, full support. I don’t have a word to fully [express how I feel but] I just felt like a killer, ready to take anything, so strong, it won’t topple me down. But now I’m like, soft. I didn’t have to be so hard.

JG: Was there anything that happened in the last few months that led to this?

JMK: Moving into this house! We moved from Taguig to Makati, and that changed a lot of perspectives on life. I’ve lived only in condos—my whole life. Condos, or renting a room. I lived in a suitcase. And then we lived together for four years and accumulated a lot of things. And my husband wasn’t here! He was in the States. “Oh my goodness, I’m alone, moving everything and 12 animals.” And that changed my perspective, what life is going to be like, because my husband was saying, “I won’t be home so often.” “What?! We just moved into this house! And you’re not going to be home?” Because he was feeling more secure in America. I thought, “What is happening?” So that was the breaking point here at home. And it’s strange how you have to move out of a home and into another to see things differently. It’s like you’re slowly moving into a new you. You rearrange things and that’s how it is with life. New coat of paint. Rearranged furniture. Look at things differently. I think the house move represented that in our relationship. We needed a shift. A “relationshift.” That’s what happened. I felt like this relationshit took a relationshift! [laughs] Like we were being rocked constantly to where we are now.

JG: Did you ever fight about it? Did you ever argue about these things? What were the sources of arguments?

JMK: [sighs] Ian leaving. So it was battles with me and my abandonment [issues]. I grew up with no dad, and so Ian wanting to live free in another life represented abandonment. And that’s why I had to fight with myself a lot, because even if he says, “I’m not abandoning you,” it meant creating a new life for me. “Why do you have to go?”

“Because I can’t be myself here.”

“I left the States! I left my whole life in the States! And you’re going back?! Why’re you going there?” I just want to have a home, I just want to be secure, I just want to be here. But parang baliktad [yung nangyari]. Now, Ian is the gypsy and I’m the foundation.

JG: Because you were the gypsy before.

JMK: Yes. That’s how he met me. I’m the one with the suitcase. I’m the one travelling to a different country, earning my keep, and then I come back. So it’s a switch. He’s supposed to be in Germany tomorrow. And he’s rearranged his trip and I feel like that was a good change because, okay, you’re going to go to Germany, then you’re going to be in Japan, then you’re going to be home for one week, then I’m going to go back to the States. Oh my god, why do we live here? This was the argument. You just leave me here in a big house? This was how I was feeling because Ian was accepted and could open a car shop over there, the car owner was okay with him being trans. He would have a new life, meet new people, and like, what, I represent his—past life? Which is not the case, but that’s how I was feeling, which was really painful. But yeah, he moved his trip . . . our pact as a couple is like, we cannot be apart. It doesn’t work. Even when I would be shooting Top Model, Ian would visit me halfway into the shoot. And now, baliktad. I do it now for Ian. Like, okay, I’m gonna go to the States in August to help create the expansion of his car shop there. And I thought, “Well, I guess I can continue some castings when I go to the States again . . . [laughs] I still have my agents there. This is quite good! Get myself a Mustang . . . [laughs] Win-win! But I wasn’t able to see that. I just kept saying “You’re leaving, you’re leaving. You’re leaving because you can’t be accepted.”

PR: He just needed time on his own.

JMK: We went to SM Aura yesterday. Wow, guys, it was crazy! Because we’ve always shopped abroad together. And we looked at SM Aura, and Ian was just in slippers, no makeup, looking cute. He likes my sports bra, so he goes, I want some—because he is growing [his breasts]. And it was so cool to actually shop in the Philippines together. But wow, we were just looking for some tank dresses, and we were skimming the racks, and there was another transgender who was watching us. From a distance. And I could feel her like, Woah, I can’t believe I’m seeing this live. [laughs]

PQ: I love this.

JMK: That’s what I thought. She was smiling at us. And she actually sent me a message on Instagram. “I saw you and Angie, and you’re such a beautiful couple.” And it was just glorious.

PQ: Is he very comfortable na?

JMK: Mmmm! Too comfortable. What a bitch. [laughs] “Do I wear this? Do I have to wear shoes for the lunch today, or like 5-inch heels?”

“It’s just lunch, you wanna relax with the frickin’ family?”

I had to make executive decisions with some of the shoes when we moved in. So many shoes. So many mistake shoes from online buying. And I’m like FaceTiming with him: “Can I make an executive decision?”

“Yeah, babe, you can.”

“12 of these are going. Let’s keep it classy, okay? You’re not wearing these shoes. Out.”

PR: What’s his size?

PQ & JMK: 13.

PQ: Women’s, right?

JMK: Yeah.

PQ: That’s big. You can’t buy them here. Your feet are actually small! For a tall girl.

JMK: We’re the same size pala with bottoms. A few months ago he was like, “I bought a bag.”

“Oh you did!” ‘

“I bought a Chanel boy bag. With a clutch.”

“Wow. High five, mate!” I love that.

PQ: I love it!

JMK: And I’m like, can I borrow that? And he got a Mansur bag. Bitch, you got a Mansur bag?

PQ: No way! On trend!

JMK: Yeah. Kate Torralba is our buyer because we came out to Kate several years ago. Buying clothes for Ian was difficult. You need some pieces that are customized. And I love Kate, so I opened up to her and she made Ian a gown. He wore it when we went to Oregon to visit his real biological mom so he could come out to her. I needed to get some help for nice dresses for him, something that’s form-fitting. I’m not a stylist, but there are some basic stuff where you’re like, “That doesn’t work.”

PR: Does he have other friends now that he can speak to?

JMK: Oh yeah, everybody.

PR: About transitioning . . .

JMK: Uh. No. Probably in the future. I actually sent messages to Jenny Boylan in the States. She’s a professor and she’s married. She didn’t respond to me but she responded to Ian. Wow, selective these transgenders, huh? [laughs] It’d be great to meet Caitlyn Jenner but right now it doesn’t matter. Geena [Rocero]—I’ve never met Geena but she shared our post, one of those being circulated, and that was really cool. Geena’s really cute. She’s hot. And I was like, “This is so nice!” And I’ve always been supportive of the LGBTQ community, but somehow with this, I’m like a poster girl now for wives of trans women!

JG: So before Saturday, who else knew?

JMK: For several years, the immediate family knew. Like mom, dad, and then his brother, and then the barkada of Ian, and my barkada. This year we started expanding more.

PR: For some people, they thought it was just Ian being eccentric by cross-dressing. That was the initial reaction.

JMK: Or like Ian’s account was hacked. How could he do all those photos?!

PQ: So dressing up, especially like a woman, is really pleasurable to him?

JMK: Yeah.

PQ: So would he want to dress like a man again?

JMK: Clothes don’t make him!

PQ: Yeah but his preference now is this, right?

JMK: Yeah. Like right now, he can do whatever. It doesn’t matter. It’s like how we all feel. Like, what’s our mood? But it’s still practical. He can’t be at a car shop in heels. Whatever flavor you feel that day. Like today, going to lunch, he wasn’t in the mood to wear a dress. “Just wear what you feel, what you want, and whatever also makes you look great.” So that’s kind of where we are at. But things are changing because Ian will be changing form a little, so there will be adjustments and stuff, so that’s gonna be fun. Like having another pair of breasts in this house. But that’s great. I’m very happy for that. I find myself asking, “Am I a lesbian now?” Some people have asked, “Joey are you a lesbian?” But I’m not a lesbian. I guess it looks that way. Like I said, I just look straight at Ian and I’m attracted either/or . . . breasts, no breasts, hair extensions. The only thing that’s not cool is lipstick. Kissing lipstick is not cool. I didn’t know it was so bad for dudes kissing the girls! Because it doesn’t taste good. So that’s the only thing that’s like, okay, with lipstick, just pecks. I’m still highly attracted to Ian in whatever.

JG: In whatever—

JMK: Yeah! So sexy, so beautiful. It doesn’t faze me. I love you, I’m totally turned on.

PR: This is what’s on everyone’s lips: What’s the sexual chemistry like?

JG: Has it changed?

JMK: No! It’s actually intensified! [laughs]

PQ: That’s amazing!

JMK: I don’t know! You’d think that as a woman, this is not cool, this is not what I’m attracted to. But I’m still highly attracted, and my partner’s still highly attracted to me. I’m just turned on. Let’s go have some fun. And as maybe things develop, same thing! I think I’d be even luckier. Like, great, a pair of boobs, awesome.

JG: Is there a desire within him to take it further beyond the breasts?

JMK: Still feeling it out! Because in transition, Ian is just really happy. He’s just radiant. But I’m always, like, try not to do surgery. Try to still be your authentic self without surgery. Try not to change so much of yourself. But if you do, if you want to enhance your pair of breasts, by all means, go for it. But it’d be wonderful to just work with how your body’s doing on its own. There’s always push-up bra, and Ian’s always been a feminine male anyway, so it just works well. Androgyny is pretty cool, too. But how fun is that? You can be so playful. If you want to be super “fem,” you can. If you want to be in between, you can. As for girls, we can be androgynous, too. I’ve played with androgyny a lot.

PQ: You’ve had a lot of those shoots.

JMK: I’m always a dude! Everyone’s like the vixen or the tough chick and stuff.

PQ: I want to say, Joe, I really find the way you are, and maybe also Ian, so advanced in your level of thinking. I feel so primitive. When I first found out about this, I actually messaged Jerome that I felt so primitive. I feel like I’m learning, with this whole revelation.

PR: You’re ahead of your time. Especially in this country.

JMK: I was told by a healer that Ian and I are karmic. That we were together in a past life and he told me, “You loved him unconditionally also.” And I feel it! I know it! That’s why it’s familiar to me. And maybe that’s why I just can’t let this go.

PQ: You seem like you’re in such a great place. You seem so happy.

JMK: I’m good. When we shot together, I came from a retreat. I wanted to be done with these inner thoughts that I was dealing with, and I wanted this year to be different, different behaviors, different thought process, just no longer going around the same circles of what we were constantly doing. So I started investing in me. And then I think that was also a nice shift, because I looked into myself, and then dealt with my issues, which was abandonment and attachment. It was kind of like what a friend was teaching me: when you have no attachments, you are free. And that’s what I was doing with my relationship. I was attaching so much to it. But the moment I detach, it doesn’t mean that I love you less. It’s actually that I love you even more. It’s just that I actually love myself equally. And I think that sometimes dynamics in relationships, friendships and marriages, sometimes the partner gives a little too much, and they lose out because they forget to give for themselves. So the moment I started investing and loving myself was when I was able to see things differently.

PQ: That’s amazing.

JMK: [My friend] Serena was sharing the story of a friend of hers who went through the same thing but it didn’t work for them.

JG: What happened?

JMK: The wife ended up being a lesbian, and the husband, who’s now female, they had a son together. And it was really hard for them because they’d been together for several years and he just said, “Oh, by the way, I’m transgender.” Mine, we started from the beginning, together, and then graduated to transgender from cross-dressing. I even went to a forum for straight spouses. It didn’t really help me, actually. I was looking for stories of maybe other wives that I could connect to. They’re angry, a lot of them. Married for 39 years then the man says he’s transgender, he’s on hormones, then he just left the family. I felt that these women are not me. There was one beautiful story of a couple: they owned an art gallery, and her husband transitioned, and her advice on the forum was to re-date your partner. Just go on dates. You’re getting to know someone different, it’s the same essence but different form. And they’re both art dealers, and now they’re wife and wife, and it worked for her. But majority was not really helpful for me. And Ian and I were like, “You just have to write your own story.” It’s come down to that, where there will be no one I’ll relate to. This is just our own story. And I’ll just have to accept that. Now women are coming to me. For understanding. But sige, I’ll gladly showcase what has worked for us.

JG: So everyday is a learning process.

JMK: No naman, not everyday. Actually, everyday is just having fun, and we’re just giddy. Like today. You’re going to the car shop? You’re gonna wear those pumps? Bring Band-aids. But it’s great. Today, maybe we could finish the final chapter of Game of Thrones. Very normal. Then, dinner out. It’s just so nice to be out. It may not be the case all the time, di ba? We might have some peeps that might be aggressive. It happens. It’s ignorance, it’s their fear, so let’s just be forgiving about it. It’s not their fault. We’re ready for it if it comes. Not everybody understands. I don’t expect anybody to understand. As long as we understand each other, and then our friends and family are cool about it, that’s all that matters.

PQ: Is Ian as spiritual as you?

JMK: Yeah, he is.

PR: Does he meditate? Have you taught him how to?

JMK: He doesn’t meditate, but he’ll try to silence the mind and stuff. We went to see a counselor six or seven years ago in the States, and we did the whole two hours discussing where we’re at. And we realized I spent $250 for nothing because she just said, “I’ve never had a couple like you before.” So while we were looking for help, the only help that you need is to help yourself. So eventually, as time went on, I ended up just helping myself because that was the [missing] piece of the puzzle.

JG: Pam was telling me earlier how colorful your life had been.

JMK: It’s been interesting. Even before this, during my modeling days in the 90s, and I had the abusive relationship also, and then just travelling back and forth, just trying to make a living, starting everything on my own at 15. So there’s been a lot of hard knocks in my life. But also there’s been such pleasurable moments. And I think in life, self-discovery is always constant. It doesn’t say, This is who I am, accept it. No. Actually what we don’t realize is we’re actually constantly changing. We’re actually all in transition ourselves. And how amazing is that? We can all transition, it’s just up to ourselves on how we plan it, what you want. Sometimes it’s a little easy when you look at it that way. It doesn’t have to be so hard.

PQ: But it’s great also that you express it. Your feelings. Not everyone can.

JMK: How hard is it for those who can’t. I didn’t realize that there’s so many people that have reached out to Ian. There’s so many that are hiding. So it’s scary. And then with the messages I’ve been getting from an assortment of people, just so in awe of just what we have, and wishing that they had the same, or just wishing that they could just be their true selves—wow. What we’ve done has become quite like an atomic bomb, of love. And maybe there’ll be more, like others that will be like, Okay, screw this stuff, I’m just going to come out and be who I believe I should be. And to see the acceptance that we have, I think it’s a good time [to come out].

PR: It can open doors for a lot of people. Have you guys thought about having your own children, whether your own or through adoption?

JMK: Well, the animals there are the four-legged children [Joey has several dogs and cats at home]. But before when we got together in a relationship that was what Ian asked. He was like, I’m okay, if we did have a child, I will support us and make sure that our child is clothed and educated. But I don’t want to have children. He has a son, Iñigo—I think that just really rocked him up at 15 years old. [Ian was a] Dad at 15. Iñigo is now 20. I’m good [with not having a child]. I’m down with it. Besides, the mother in me is adopting every stray cat. You have no family? Come here! I’ll take care of you! I’m very compassionate with animals.

PR: I like the fact that you don’t have to define things. We’re not used to not defining things. And I think the world is changing. You’ve seen it in the past couple of years. People are getting more open-minded. It’s nothing short of miraculous. I think it’s a clear sign that people’s mindsets are changing, without them doing it consciously.

JMK: We got the sources like Caitlyn. We were actually monitoring Bruce, knowing that, okay, Bruce is definitely transgender. And when that came out, I think that was able to pave the way, because Bruce is also like—would you say a straight transgender? Unsure? Not yet. But just happy being finally Caitlyn. So that was a big change. And then coming out with the frickin’ Vanity Fair cover. Kaboom! We watch Caitlyn, so it’s good to see the different ages of transgenders that she has on her show—and all the TV shows coming out, shows that are still there, Orange is the New Black, Transparent.

PR: Did the coming out of Caitlyn help Ian?

JMK: It was a big introduction. And then those who’ve watched Danish Girl, they were telling us, “Joe, don’t watch Danish Girl na because I was really traumatized by it.” Ian downloaded it, and we were watching it in bed, and we were laughing. Oh my god, babe, oh my god, oh my god! [laughs] We weren’t traumatized. I was not crying. We were just like, wow, medyo too much yung movie ha. Medyo over. You cant have ovaries. Take it back a notch. But the moments where Gerda [Vikander’s character] was losing her mind? I related to that so much. That was the four years when Ian said, “I want to do this daily.” It was like, “I just want my husband, can I have my husband?” Alicia portrayed it so well. She was lost, she was in the rain. And the emotions she showcased were the same to how I felt. You don’t know what’s happening, this is so confusing. This wasn’t what we had planned. This was supposed to be fun! But when Girda went fully supportive of Lili through and through, it’s also what I felt. You just make a decision. And that’s how I felt. I made my decision.

PR: You mentioned Ian’s son. How’s Ian with Iñigo?

JMK: God, Iñigo’s the coolest kid in the block, man. He calls him mom. Ian told Iñigo this year, when they went snowboarding, and Iñigo’s into cosplay, so there’s something they have in common [laughter]. Iñigo’s cool. Got their hair done different colors when they were together in LA.

PQ: That’s amazing.

JMK: Iñigo was here when dad passed away. And then I got a chance to get to know Iñigo when he lived with us in the house. This boy is really empathic. He feels for people a lot. I knew that he would be really supportive.

JG: So what’s it like when you’re abroad? When you’re not here. In gay pride marches, for example.

JMK: It’s great. It’s so much fun. Of course, you see so many different types of people from all parts of the world, and we don’t really have that here.

PR: How about coming out to his father, was that difficult?

JMK: Yes. Telling them in the beginning was difficult, for dad. He was being educated by Mom Ling. It was Mom Ling who just kept feeding it to dad. When dad was sick in Germany, when he was in the recovery state na, that’s when I went to visit Ian there. I had the opportunity to also express my thoughts to dad. So I wrote a letter for him. And he still had that tube in his neck, so he couldn’t speak yet, but he was just watching me as I read the letter.

It went, “Dad, I’m very happy that you are now in the recovery stage. We want you to be strong, and wanted to share this with you. I know you were apprehensive of me asking for your son’s hand in marriage. It’s kind of not normal, but I wanted you to see what I saw. See, Ian has been taking care of you these last two months”—Ian was hands-on with his dad in Germany—“And you see how caring and nurturing he is, and I saw this, and I selfishly wanted this for myself. I wanted to marry this human being. But now you see why I asked.” And I go, “Dad, I never had a father, and I always imagined it would be Omar Shariff that would come and take me away on his horse and bring me to the palace and say ‘Here is your 18th birthday gift! Your 21st birthday gift! And all the things I missed out from my own father!’ I’ve had this fantasy for a long time, but you are my father, and I love you, and I want you to recover from all of this.” And he said, [mouthing the words] “Thank you.”

Because I wanted him to know that his son, he has that femininity which is just an innate ability to just want to take care and love without any questions, without anything in return. And this is what Ian was feeling and doing, and this is why I think Ian was slowly coming into this “who I am” stage. It was [a period of] change for Ian that time. So dad was super softened up from then on. Even after his heart surgery, which was a few years before that, dad was a lot more understanding. And then pretty much like, yeah, months before dad’s passing, dad was full force. “We’re gonna do a PR thing for Ian. We’re gonna do something so our employees will be able to understand him more.” So dad was very supportive.

PR: I have no words.

PQ: Same!

JMK: Thanks guys—it’s really lovely when people say it, but I feel like it’s so normal for us? We have trials and tribulations like everybody else does.

PR: But for now, all is good.

JMK: It’s super sunny, but there will be moments where there’s a storm. But like I said, I’m riding it through.

Original article here.


Your Greatest Tool - Imagination

... you can use your imagination to propel you into your greatest dreams and aspirations or plunge you down into your biggest fears. But one thing is for sure, what you focus upon will always expand, so we encourage you to choose wisely. ~ Angelic Guides / Taryn Crimi

If you're wanting to master your reality, as I am, I can't think of a more pertinent article than the following. I first posted this article here, but am reproducing it below, in it's entirety. Enjoy InJoy!

“Are you using your imagination the way your soul intended?”

Angelic Guides through Taryn Crimi

April 19, 2017

Today we would like to focus your attention upon the vast topic of your imagination. All of you came here equipped with this magnificent tool and yet we watch as so many misuse it. We would like to take this time to briefly discuss the true purpose of your imagination and what you can do to ensure that you use it the way your soul had intended.

From our perspective everything is simply energy which resonates at its own unique frequency. Your five physical senses are capable of translating vibration into a sight, a sound, a taste, a touch and a smell, however you have become so accustomed to utilizing your physical senses to determine the “realness” of your reality that you don’t even consciously realize that you are continually translating your vibrational reality into a physical reality. However here is the catch, you only have access to what you have matched vibrationally. In other words, the sights that you see as you look out your window, the smells in the air and so on are an exact match to the vibration you are pulsing out at any given time. Remember, you cannot experience what you do not resonate with.

You have at your disposal the most powerful tool which can transport you to any place in any time for as long as you choose. You can use this tool to conjure the most magnificent reality you could possibly imagine or you can use it to torture yourself with worry, anxiety and your greatest fears of what’s to come. This tool is of course your imagination. We do not perceive any difference between the thoughts and images you hold in your imagination and the reality which you stand within that you are certain is more “real” because it is tangible. From our perspective, everything is a vibrational reality. Yet we understand that for the time being you very much want your dreams to not only be vibrational but physical as well.

Well, we will tell you this, the only thing that makes it more tangible is that you have found a way to match the vibration of your physical reality, which you are translating so perfectly that you have attracted it into your physical experience. Everything you have, every circumstance you experience, once was a thought, it was simply an un-translated vibration. We often times like to use simple analogies to try to make what appears to be a very complex topic into one that can be easily understood. Take your television for instance. You understand that you must turn it on in order to watch a particular channel. You also understand that the one that you are watching is not the only channel that exists. Rather, there are many different channels that are being broadcast at all times and all you must do is simply change the channel that you are tuned to in order to experience a new “show”. Such is the case with your vibration. The experiences that you are creating are a direct result of the vibration that you are tuned to. It is what we like to call the “channel” of your life.

Your imagination is the preview of what is located on all the other potential channels that you can access. We can guarantee that you have the ability to physically experience anything that you have seen in your imagination regardless of how big it may appear because you wouldn’t have been able to conjure the thought in the first place if you did not also have the ability to fully tune yourself to that reality.

The imagination is meant to be used in the most creative, magnificent way; to help you to create the life of your dreams, to be able to experience what you desire most before it is attracted into your physical reality. You can play there as long as you like, no one can remove you but you. You can continue to expand upon your dreams in your imagination until you become so familiar with the experience that you essentially match the vibration necessary to attract it into your reality. Remember, the Universe is constantly reflecting back to you what you have sent out vibrationally. The Universe cannot decipher the difference between whether you are focused upon in your imagination or if you are focused upon something in your physical reality, all that matters is how your focus makes you feel. That focus essentially determines what other experiences will be attracted into your reality which are a match to that vibrational resonance.

So you see, you can use your imagination to propel you into your greatest dreams and aspirations or plunge you down into your biggest fears. But one thing is for sure, what you focus upon will always expand, so we encourage you to choose wisely. Let your dreams soar, play in your imagination as often as you can and soon the very dreams you once thought were only held in your imagination will become your new physical reality.

We hope that we have served you in some way.

In love and light, we are your Angelic Guides

Copyright © 2012-2017 by Taryn Crimi. All Rights Reserved. Permission is given to copy, share and distribute this material, provided the content is copied in its entirety and unaltered, is distributed freely, and this copyright notice and links are included. www.Angelic-Guides.com


Choice Point: NEW Earth or Old - Lisa Brown

October-December 2017 Multi-Dimensional Quantum Energy Report: Choice Point - NEW Earth or Old

By Lisa Transcendence Brown

October 1, 2017

This is CHOICE POINT for many transitioning over to "get off the fence" of straddling the old & new to prepare to JUMP Quantum Style (non-linearly and "fast") into much higher timelines by holding that consciousness and DOing Soul-aligned realities (instead of human/ego aligned ones).


Let go of any judgment that holds you to your old limited-separated realities, which is unconscious programs too. Open up fully. It's exquisite and freeing as we all do!

~ Lisa Transcendence Brown

(video link)


Achieving Your Permanent Residency On New Earth

"Your HEAVEN ON EARTH will materialize for you, when HEAVEN INSIDE is where you live, when/as you BRING YOUR SOUL SELF out, from within. As you share and maintain your own Christed State, being a Angel, being your Arcturian, Sirian, Lyran, LeMUrian (and more) ---- PURE ASPECTS without distortion of your human ego, then your outside will become HEAVEN ON EARTH for you to WALK-IN AND PLAY IN --- for you to EXPERIENCE, without having to "go back" to any other dimensional reality anymore..... You do this by embracing, holding and BEing your HIGHEST ASPECT YOU in every moment and no longer comprom[i]sing this for anything...." ~ Lisa Transcendence Brown

Achieving Your Permanent Residency On NEW Earth& Always Experiencing Heaven On Earth

By Lisa Transcendence Brown

September 2, 2017

It's not only do-able, it's already been done. It will not be an easy task, as you will have to work through every aspect of yourself that is not your Ascended Aspect of Christed Consciousness, God-Source-Creator Consciousness, Purity-Love Consciousness, to resolve and finally decide that the ONLY REALity you are willing to allow/create/participate in is NEW EARTH NOW.

This is about your EXPERIENCE, how you treat each other, how much you truly care, how much you keep perpetuating the old through your own separation-needs-beliefs and how much you RECOGNIZE the external reality as REFLECTING BACK TO YOU a multiple-dimensional EXPERIENCE, to show you what you still hold inside of you, your own consciousness or unconsciousness...

You WILL have to choose (Choice Point), in every moment (Zero Point), what you are willing to accept, what you are willing to do to intentionally anchor your highest dimensional reality/timelines into this physical here. No one can do this for you, only you can. That world out there, your Universe, your reality... and every EXPERIENCE will show you exactly what you need to see in order to understand/accept your RESPONSIBILITIES AS A BEING OF LIGHT and PURE LOVE here.

Every exchange will show you what physical dimension your body (and consciousness) is in. Every experience will provide you an opportUNITY TO CHOOSE HOW you desire to do this experience here. Your human will have drama, chaos, conflict and excuses, trying to hold on, with stories of obligation/guilt and who did what to who or who is doing what... when none of that matters... because it's your excuse that you keep speaking/telling yourself, it's your story that you've convinced yourself of that either keeps you in an old unconscious reality (that will eventually play out as HEAVEN or HELL) .... first the energy, then the physical...

As you DEDICATE YOURSELF TO SERVICE, dedicate yourself to anchoring LIGHT, dedicate yourself to ONLY BEING LOVE and transmitting the highest vibrational REALity, you will start to understand what is not PURE/LOVE/UNITY... and then you will have to choose... if you are going to continue that old version of you/reality or "take the higher road", hold the vision of the highest timelines available and do whatever you see/your YOUniverse shows you that you must do/contribute in order to achieve that reality in this physical here.

Multi-Dimensional Realities are a complilation of many things. It's opening up FULLY to the possibilities, the opportunities, the visions/dreams and realizing that those realities only occur when you achieve the OVERALL VIBRATION within yourself, with all of you and all that you have access to as well. You start to see the bigger picture, you actually LOOK TO SEE where you can actually contribute to making a difference and you do the things that your little human didn't want to do, thought menial or bring you into UNITY CONSCIOUSNESS as a part of the whole. You work through your own discomfort, stop sitting back expecting things to be easy... as they are easy AS/AFTER you've done the work. Inner work/outer work, both are important here. The outer work is as a result of what you hear/see/feel inside, it's what "helps" make things easier for all, yet not in the old ways of trying to fix/save, but in a way of that you actually care, about each other as SOULS and you come together as this.

OpportUNITY will present itself, and you have to be ready to JUMP, you have to be ready to embrace those Heavenly Realities that support, by becoming the supporter/supportive one. You have to be ready to step into the WayShower Role, to see how you can contribute and DO what you see, instead of seeing what you get out of things first...you will start to realize that you will RECEIVE based upon your contribution as LOVE.

Your HEAVEN ON EARTH will materialize for you, when HEAVEN INSIDE is where you live, when/as you BRING YOUR SOUL SELF out, from within. As you share and maintain your own Christed State, being a Angel, being your Arcturian, Sirian, Lyran, LeMUrian (and more) ---- PURE ASPECTS without distortion of your human ego, then your outside will become HEAVEN ON EARTH for you to WALK-IN AND PLAY IN --- for you to EXPERIENCE, without having to "go back" to any other dimensional reality anymore..... You do this by embracing, holding and BEing your HIGHEST ASPECT YOU in every moment and no longer compromsing this for anything....

It's not only possible, it's already REAL... Heaven is a PHYSICAL DIMENSION (Hell is too). Before 2012, these were just "etheric realms", yet the Ascension of Earth into Multi-Dimensionality changed all of this.... by opening up Physical Body Ascension for each to EXPERIENCE Heaven or Hell through increasing the POLARITY for each to awaken "faster", by whatever means necessary to remove/dissolve the VEILS OF AMNESIA that were a part of our AGREED psychotic state of Unconsciousness.

These Veils 'interrupted' your access, your ability to see & understand, because they were supposed to, as this was called YOUR HUMAN EXPERIENCE/EXPERIMENT here. The physical reality is a Symbol, a metaphor, an EXPERIENCE that your human aspect must DECIPHER & DECODE in order to start to truly see how all truly is now.

Your human aspect that lives from a limited human mind, a linear reality, cannot understand any of this, which requires physical experiences to resolve all of that ENERGY held in cellular memory, in every part of the physical body that only your Higher Self/Soul Self can see/feel/read/understand. Your heart must open FULLY for you to FEEL FULLY AGAIN, for you to start to listen to and understand your own feelings, listen to and understand your own pre-programmed beliefs that dictate the frequency bandwidths that your body vibrates in/out of constantly, easier when the density has been cleared. Every cell will go Photonic/Quantum and move within your body, racing and charging like never before to "carry you" (vibrate you) into a higher dimension. Your body will start to re-wire/re-calibrate/re-code it's DNA/Genetics and re-work itself and your own telepathic connection with your body and listening to your higher self will "tell you" what is going on, what needs your attention and what your body needs to do this evolutionary process easier....

Your ignorance/not wanting to listen/feel/hear/honor (ignoring) or your paying attention /listening /caring /supporting /embracing will dictate your experience here.

Heaven is already a PHYSICAL REALITY and can be experienced ALL OF THE TIME, AS it becomes IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO YOU. Your physical reality is DESIGNED to shift your consciousness, so that you will now choose/do this more often than not, until it's the only thing you choose.

NEW EARTH IS GALACTICS SOULS walking in a PHYSICAL REALITY, united, working together cohesively, as LOVE ... where beauty, magnificence, peace, kindness, consideration, caring, respect, honor, integrity, gratitude, appreciation, generosity, contribution are abundant, therefor all is infinitely abundant and EXPERIENCED in every moment and way too.

Each must access HEAVEN inside, the Higher Realms from inside, to that the LOWER REALMS/HELL can dissolve from inside, so that outside can re-align vibrationally to match this in the physical....

When you WALK in a YOUR PHYSICAL REALity, you walk as love, you walk in your Ascended State of Consciousness, you walk as the ONE that CREATED everything you EXPERIENCE here. You walk as an angel, as a Goddess/God (without Ego) as PURE DIVINE ESSENCE LOVE. You touch the lives of everyone, you hold the highest vibration there is, others FEEL that you actually CARE, they FEEL your PURITY... you need to tell them anything... for you TRANSMIT PURITY from the CORE & DEPTHS of your ENTIRE BEING.... OUT through a UNIFIED FIELD OF CONSCIOUSNESS that YOU MAINTAIN and HOLD.... THIS IS CALLED EMBODIMENT, where your entire physical reality is HEAVEN all of the time, and this can only occur/happen when it's the only space you occupy/allow yourself to reside.

YOU are the one that must anchor enough LIGHT within you for your whole REALity to shift/change. YOU are the one that must get up every day and focus your own energy on what you came here to do. You are the one that ULTIMATELY has to choose. You are the one that must "look out there" and see how you can contribute, you are the one that must step-up and be ready to fulfill your own Soul Purposes & Galactic Missions here. You do not "wait" for anyone/anything else to do any of this for you... you must do this yourself.

The Physical Earth is comprised of infinite-multiple dimensions that your consciousness must activate and achieve first. Then your body gets to come along... this is how all works. Magic, surprises and amazingness appears all around you as your Plasma Crystalline LightBody evolves, giving you the capABILITY to experience all of these dimensions in your physical reality. You must TUNE your vision, tune your thoughts, tune your vibration, tune your heart and entire being constantly to actually SEE and FEEL what was not visible before.

The planet & atomosphere is now FLOODING constantly with the highest frequencies of encoded Christed/Galactic/God Particle Light than ever before. The dense/sleeping human body was not equipped for multi-dimensional existence, therefore it must go through a rigorous transformation "to get up to speed", in order to walk multi-dimensionally....

The amount of DENSITY that was CREATED (required) to hold unconscious 3rd Dimension (and 4th Dimension) in place was immense. The process of de-densifying in order to transcend those physical dimensions is just as so....

The 5TH+ Dimensions (it's not just the 5th, as this is just the beginning, as each transitions/crosses over the RAINBOW BRIDGE) to ENTER the Gates of Heaven, to actually walk in/exist in these higher dimensional (Lighter Density) REALities that are not possible to the limited human mind, are only accessible as each decides to commit to HIGHEST EXISTENCE from inside and with all that they are/do. There is no other way to "get here".... it's got to be that IMPORTANT to each one ... or it is not achievable, because compromise will always enter in.

Judgment is a leading form of separation, because your human still plays in duality realities inside. You must become the OBSERVER of REALities through your own Higher Consciousness Soul Heart and accept what is not logical, release that which no longer serves your own UNITY-CONSCIOUSNESS-LOVE Existence here. This will never be about anyone else... this will always be about you and what you are creating, allowing, doing, being and your own contributions for all of HUmanity here. When you judge, you separate off. When you hold back, you separate off. When your heart closes, your mind does too and you separate off. When you allow your head to run the show, you separate off. Where you hold resistance inside, you hold yourself in separation. Where you make excuses, you do this too. Where you are not ready to OWN all and release it/reconcile it and return all to LOVE, YOU hold on to ENERGETIC REALities, that transmit the frequency for the reality you experience UNTIL you are ready/willing/able to finally shift. Every ounce of that old unconsious programmed energy must dissolve for you to ACCOMPLISH shifting your whole YOU to a higher dimensional plane where you get to actually EXPERIENCE highest everything in your every experience here.

Yes, EVERY EXPERIENCE can be the most amazing everything, if this is what you hold, if this is the only thing that you will entertain and allow... It's your separated human aspect that disconnected and kept creating the old realities for you to keep experiencing until you got tired of those, until you broke/broke down (this breaking actually breaks the geometrics that held the old constructs of reality in place within you), until those molecules/cells can integrate these new encodements into them and RE-SHAPE YOUR REALITY... in order to take new physical form "out there"....

Your every action, your every thought, your every belief.... transmits ENCODED TRANSMISSIONS that tell physical matter HOW TO TAKE SHAPE and MATERIALIZE your Physical REALITY for you... Your human aspect of you, does not hold the ability to "do this at will", as it has not gained/achieved/accessed Christed/God/Source Consciousness, which gives you these easy and simple capABILITIES here. HOLDING your most expanded State of Consciousness is HOW you gain/achieve these abilities again. Your heart & mind must be PURE, for your template to be RESTORED to PURITY, your original template, which activates PURE ALCHEMY states with great ease... and just by BEing your highest aspects of yourself in your every moment here.

Your physical reality is a CREATION from within you. Returning to your own Christed State, returns you to SOURCE CREATOR again. This POWER, this ESSENCE, this is a way of BEING... it's a whole new EXISTENCE... it's not a "just here and there" or "when it serves your own human wants".... it's how you LIVE YOUR LIFE, it's HOW YOU TREAT OTHERS, it's HOW YOU CONNECT and communication through a deep profound sacred love and respect that transcends all things human....

HEAVEN is a place now, that you WALK IN and materializes all around you as you HOLD YOUR PUREST STATE from inside and as you no longer accept less or keep recreating less to experience in your own physical reality world.....

There are no words to describe the experience or explain fully, as it has to be EXPERIENCED to understand. This is not a "free ride", you do not get to sit around and wait for it to happen for you, you actually have to do the work to integrate integrate integrate and step up constantly until your "new way" is easy, natural and everything is fully aligned.

When you open your eyes, look for the different dimensions, FEEL them and identify each one so that YOU CAN UNDERSTAND.... then choose to continually shift your own vibration to experience the ONES that support achieving HEAVEN ON EARTH here. Open your MIND to actually look, decipher and see.... then you will REALize what you must do.... and listen to your You-niverse as it instructs you... for as you MERGE FULLY, there will be no more separation and you'll stop "going back" because you won't allow this/or choose it anymore....

I love you! I'll share some photos of walking in Plasma Crystalline Heaven, as there are no words for capturing the entire actual experience. These do reflect... In order for each to truly understand, I'd have to share every moment, which is not possible. Make/anchor/integrate your own Heaven by letting go/releasing all from within that is not. ♥

Lisa Transcendence Brown ☼

p.s. The moments that are not magical and amazing, are showing you what is no longer in vibrational alignment, what you are to release/releasing (on a cellular level/from your own consciousness) and where you have to actually choose/decide, where you need to re-align fully from within you.... for "that" represents your "old unconscious you" or your new/higher dimensional realities.... Keep intentionally tuning/re-tuning. Your physical experience depends on this. Keep anchoring & integrating. ♥


Heather's Detention Hearing Transcript, August 29, 2017

Note: On August 29, 2017, Heather was released from incarceration under restriction.

As shown in the transcript below, one aspect of her release is that she is forbidden from discussing anything about her case publicly, so this will be the last update on her status until those restrictions are removed.

Randy is still incarcerated pending resolution of an outstanding warrant (a traffic violation, I believe).

Heather's Detention Hearing Transcript, August 29, 2017

From the blog Terran Cognito (formerly American Kabuki)

Terran note: Below is the html version of the transcript of Heather's detention hearing. I have redacted the address and phone number of Heather's host. I have also added the word "Page" in front of the page numbers for clarity. I added a link to the video of Heather's arrest in 2011 after the Pierce County Sheriffs deputy shoulder butts Heather during an eviction and then arrests her, which is mentioned below in the court transcript. The entire incident is on video and you can watch it as it happened. The rest of the transcript is as it was received today from the court in a PDF.

Note: PDF version available here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/15hd7hj014403ki/RL08.29.17b%20%28USA%20vs.%20Tucci-Jarraf%29%20with%20address%20redaction.pdf?dl=0


Plaintiff, )
vs. ) Case No.: 3:17-CR-82
Defendant. )


August 29, 2017
10:47 a.m. to 12:50 p.m.


Assistant United States Attorney United States Department of Justice Office of the United States Attorney
800 Market Street
Suite 211
Knoxville, Tennessee 37902

Law Office of Francis L. Lloyd, Jr.
9111 Cross Park Drive
Suite D-200
Knoxville, Tennessee 37923


Rebekah M. Lockwood, RPR, CRR
Official Court Reporter
(865) 210-6698
800 Market Street, Suite 130
Knoxville, Tennessee 37902

Page 3

Proceedings 3

Direct Examination by Ms. Tucci-Jarraf 41
Cross-Examination by Ms. Davidson 45
Redirect Examination by Ms. Tucci-Jarraf 46
Proceedings 47

(Call to Order of the Court)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. All rise. This court is again in session with the Honorable C. Clifford Shirley, Jr.,

United States Magistrate Judge, presiding.

Please come to order and be seated.

We are here for a detention hearing, status conference, and motion hearing in case number 3:17-CR-82, United States of America versus Heather Tucci-Jarraf.

Here on behalf of the government is Cynthia Davidson and Anne-Marie Svolto. Is the government ready to proceed?

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And here on behalf of the defendant isFrancis Lloyd, Jr. Is the defendant ready to proceed?

MR. LLOYD: The defendant is ready -- present and ready, Your Honor.

As to the status of my relationship to the defendant, I believe that at the hearing this past Thursday, Magistrate Judge

Guyton left that to be decided by Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Fine. We will take that up first then.

Ms. Davidson, good morning.

MS. DAVIDSON: Good morning, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Lloyd, good morning.

MR. LLOYD: Good morning, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Is it Ms. Tucci-Jarraf? Have I said it close? I would like to address you as close to proper as I can do.

Page 4

THE DEFENDANT: Without prejudice, yes, my name is

Heather Ann Tucci-Jarraf.

THE COURT: Tucci-Jarraf. Okay. Thank you. I'll try to get that correct. And I'll apologize in advance if I don't.

Good morning to you.

Good morning to those in the audience. Let me remind those in the audience, this is a public court, and it's a public hearing, and we're glad to have you, and we welcome you to Federal Court in the Eastern District of Tennessee.

There's a couple rules that all of you need to be aware of, and it's because we obviously have to maintain order in the courtroom, and that's for the benefit of all the participants, and it's very simply you're just not to be disruptive. No comments and anything like that.

If you become disruptive, then I'll obviously need to remove the disruptive individual or individuals. If it becomes systemic, then I may have to consider closing the hearing.

So I don't anticipate any problem. We often have some relatively high-profile cases, and we have the courtroom filled from time to time, and it's generally not a problem, as long as people just sit back, take it all in, and listen.

Everybody is entitled to take any notes or anything like that if you want to, but the local rules do prohibit any

Page 5

audio or video recordings. So there's -- no one's allowed to record anything audio -- audibly or by video. No cameras are allowed. And if you do that, you will be subject to not only being removed, but possibly sanctioned or charged for violating the rules.

Does anybody have any audio or video equipment on them at this time, whether it's being used or not?

Does anybody have any electronic devices?

MR. LLOYD: Your Honor, I have my telephone, which I --

THE COURT: You know the rules, Mr. Lloyd.

MR. LLOYD: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Your continued attendance in this court insists that you follow them, and I've never known you not to.

So all right. Nobody has indicated that they have that, so I will presume everybody understands it. Anybody have any questions about the -- kind of the ground rules?

All right. Now, let's begin. I think we should take up the issue of the representation of Ms. Tucci-Jarraf. And do

I understand that she wants to retain you, that she wants you to be appointed, or that she wants to represent herself?

MR. LLOYD: Your Honor, I have informed --

THE COURT: Can you speak -- come on up and speak into the microphone here. We have a court reporter, and I want to be sure she gets everything down properly.

MR. LLOYD: Thank you, Your Honor.

Page 6

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

MR. LLOYD: I have explained to the defendant that in my view of the ethical obligations of someone called to a case under the Criminal Justice Act, I cannot accept being retained.

I think that --

THE COURT: I don't think that's true.

MR. LLOYD: Well, I would -- I'm concerned, Your Honor, that it violates the spirit of the act, if not the letter of it.

The defendant would like to apply for appointed elbow or standby counsel. And I'll -- I would ask the Court to hear

Ms. Tucci-Jarraf on that subject.

THE COURT: All right. She wishes to represent herself?

THE DEFENDANT: Actually, if I might address that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Just one second.

Is that your understanding, that she wishes to represent herself?

MR. LLOYD: My understanding is that she wishes to have -- to have me appointed under the Criminal Justice Act, but as the attorney to consult with her in presenting her desired defense.

THE COURT: Well, you understand how that works. That means she represents herself, and you are available to assist her with more administrative or ministerial-type acts, like

Page 7

assist her with filing or things of that nature, provide her if she wants copies of cases or things like that, if she can't get them, but --

MR. LLOYD: And that --

THE COURT: -- she's -- she is representing herself. You do not speak for her. You will not represent her in court, but you can sit beside her and assist her.

MR. LLOYD: As was done in one of the --

THE COURT: We've done it a half dozen times or more --

MR. LLOYD: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: -- in the last few years.

MR. LLOYD: One out of Oak Ridge was --


MR. LLOYD: -- one of my colleagues served in that capacity.

THE COURT: Correct.

MR. LLOYD: But I would ask the Court to hear the defendant so as to -- there's a clear understanding of her desire.

THE COURT: Oh, I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that, because, obviously, I have to go through a litany with her to ensure that.

All right. Thank you, Mr. Lloyd.

MR. LLOYD: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: So, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, is it correct that

Page 8

you would like to represent yourself, number one, and, number two, you would like for me to also appoint Mr. Lloyd to act as what we call elbow counsel or standby counsel?

THE DEFENDANT: Do you want me to answer from here or from the podium?

THE COURT: I think from there. If you'll just pull the microphone up, I think we can hear you fine. Mr. Lloyd just wasn't speaking up loud enough and didn't have his own microphone. Go ahead.

THE DEFENDANT: Okay. I am -- I'm here as myself.

THE COURT: I didn't ask that question.

THE DEFENDANT: No, I know. You're asking if I'm representing myself.

THE COURT: We're all here as ourself.

THE DEFENDANT: I'm not representing myself. I'm here as myself. I am myself. And I will --

THE COURT: I think I am myself too.

THE DEFENDANT: Correct. I am.

THE COURT: All right.

THE DEFENDANT: And this is without prejudice to the matter for jurisdiction, which we haven't gone over yet.

THE COURT: Correct. I'm going to allow you to file any motions you want on jurisdiction. And we'll -- I've got a good organization here, so I think if you stick with me and just let us do this, if there's anything I miss at the end --

Page 9

THE DEFENDANT: No, that's fine.

THE COURT: -- you can go on about that.

THE DEFENDANT: I'm -- your answer was if I'm going to represent myself.


THE DEFENDANT: To represent myself pro se is a completely different legal status than pro per or propria persona, as well as just --

THE COURT: No, it's not. You're wrong. It's just not the law. You either represent yourself or you don't.

THE DEFENDANT: Without prejudice, I am myself, and I am going to be presenting before this Court and on behalf of my case.

THE COURT: Do you want to represent yourself?


THE COURT: Okay. And the Sixth --

THE DEFENDANT: Without prejudice, yes.

THE COURT: All right. Sixth Amendment provides that a criminal defendant has the right to assistance of counsel, but it also provides that you can proceed without counsel, which you're offering to do in this case, if the court finds that you have voluntarily and intelligently elected to do so.

Okay. In other words, you have a right to counsel and you have a right to waive counsel. You have your choice.

Either one.

Page 10

THE DEFENDANT: Right. And this is why I wanted to handle jurisdiction first. Because depending on the jurisdiction, where -- we are operating on two different jurisdictions here. So I am going to, without prejudice, going to state that I will be presenting -- and I am myself -- I'll be presenting all cases. I do not want counsel.


THE DEFENDANT: But I do -- would like Mr. Lloyd to act as elbow counsel or what we call in the west coast standby counsel.

THE COURT: Okay. Yeah. Either one. We use them --

THE DEFENDANT: Interchangeably.

THE COURT: -- interchangeably here.


THE COURT: All right. So I have to determine that your decision to represent yourself and to waive counsel is being made knowingly and is being made voluntarily and that you understand what we refer to as all the dangers and disadvantages that that provides.

So let me start with a few questions. Have you ever studied law?


THE COURT: All right. And in what capacity?

THE DEFENDANT: I have a juris doctorate.

THE COURT: All right. And have you practiced law?

Page 11

THE DEFENDANT: I did practice. I've been a lawyer for 17 years, and I was a barred attorney for 11.

THE COURT: Okay. Barred has two terms. One is to be a member of the bar and the other is to be barred from being member of a bar.

THE DEFENDANT: A member of the bar.

THE COURT: All right. And are you still practicing?



THE DEFENDANT: I canceled that license in -- on 11 March 24th, 2011.

THE COURT: All right. Have you ever represented yourself as a defendant in a criminal action?

THE DEFENDANT: I did in Washington state regarding a -- when I was doing the mortgage fraud investigations. There was a -- an incident with the sheriffs that I was advising and consulting on the mortgage --

THE COURT: I don't need all the details.

THE DEFENDANT: True. But it was an obstruction, and so it was a criminal case that was unforeseen, and I did proceed to -- as myself presenting myself.

THE COURT: All right. So you were charged in the state of Washington --


THE COURT: -- with something?

Page 12


THE COURT: I don't need the -- I don't need the

THE DEFENDANT: It's on NCIC, but it was obstruction, but it was a deferred prosecution.

THE COURT: All right. And I'm going to --

THE DEFENDANT: It was a misdemeanor in district court.

THE COURT: I'm going to pause here just for a second. I need to remind you of something probably Judge Guyton told you, which is you have certain rights as a defendant, and one of those is the right to remain silent and not say anything that might incriminate you.

So I'm going to ask you questions very specific that in my mind don't incriminate you, but I don't want you to go on and on talking about other things that might incriminate you, because I don't want you to hurt your case. Okay.


MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, I --

THE COURT: Ms. Davidson.

MS. DAVIDSON: I was just wondering, might it be appropriate for the defendant to be sworn in, because she has not as of yet been sworn in, and she was answering lots of questions that you're asking of her.

THE COURT: All right. We'll do that. The -- I need to take up another matter that was sworn, I think before, but

Page 13

there may be some disagreement in light of Mr. Lloyd's filing.

So if you would, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, if you'd raise your right hand, please, ma'am. Okay.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? If so, please say, "I do."

THE DEFENDANT: I am source of all that is.

THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't hear you.

THE DEFENDANT: I am source of all that is. I swear to

speak true, accurate, and complete.

THE COURT: I don't know what that means. I didn't ask you what your source was. We just asked you if you are going to swear or if you're going to affirm that you will tell the truth.

THE DEFENDANT: I just said I swear to speak true, accurate, and complete.

THE COURT: Is that different?


THE COURT: What is it? What's different about that and telling the truth?

THE DEFENDANT: Truth is a matter of perception, whereas speaking true, accurate, and complete gives you a full accurate record.

THE COURT: But it's not necessarily the truth?

THE DEFENDANT: It is the truth. I only speak truth. True, accurate, and complete.

Page 14

THE COURT: Well, then I ask you, will you affirm to tell the truth?

THE DEFENDANT: I'm not trying to be difficult here. I'm saying that I will speak only true --

THE COURT: You are being difficult.

THE DEFENDANT: -- and complete --

THE COURT: You are being difficult, because I just asked you will you tell the truth.

THE DEFENDANT: I will speak truthfully.

THE COURT: And is that different than telling the truth?

THE DEFENDANT: No, it's the same thing.


THE DEFENDANT: The truth -- anyway.

THE COURT: That's good. Telling the truth and speaking truthfully are the same thing.

THE DEFENDANT: The other version means that there is room for perception. There's room for not speaking truth -- true, accurate, and complete. I'm telling you I speak only true, accurate, and complete.

THE COURT: All right. So when you told me you had a

JD. Is that truthful?

THE DEFENDANT: It is true and it is truthful.

THE COURT: Okay. And when you said you had canceled your license and quit practicing in 2011, was that true?

Page 15

THE DEFENDANT: That is true and truthful.

THE COURT: And when you said you represented yourself in a criminal case in the state of Washington, was that true?

THE DEFENDANT: That is true and truthful.

THE COURT: All right. And have you represented anybody else in a criminal case?

THE DEFENDANT: I used to be a prosecutor for the state of Washington, so, yes, during my 11 years, I have defended as well as prosecuted criminals.

THE COURT: And how long were you a prosecutor?

THE DEFENDANT: From -- well, I was a defender from --

THE COURT: A defender or prosecutor?

THE DEFENDANT: First I was a public defender.


THE DEFENDANT: For about four months. December -- excuse me, January -- approximately January of 2003 until May of 2003. Then from May of 2003, I was a prosecutor until February 18 of 2006.

THE COURT: All right. Have you ever been involved in any cases in federal court like this?

THE DEFENDANT: No, I haven't.

THE COURT: Or just state court?

THE DEFENDANT: Just state court.

THE COURT: You realize that you are charged in this court with a crime referred to as money laundering.

Page 16

THE DEFENDANT: I am aware of the allegations made by -- I'm sorry.

THE COURT: In the indictment.


THE COURT: I just need to be sure you understand.

THE DEFENDANT: I've read the allegations in the true bill.

THE COURT: Okay. I'm not asking you to agree to them.

I'm just asking if you understand them.

Do you realize that if you're found guilty of that crime, that you could face certain number of years?

How many years in prison in this case?

MS. DAVIDSON: Up to 20 years imprisonment.

THE COURT: Up to 20 years in prison. And what's the fine?

MS. DAVIDSON: It's 500,000 or twice the actual loss.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you understand that if you're found guilty, you could receive up to either of those?

THE DEFENDANT: As with this answer and the other answers, with reservation to the matter of jurisdiction, to let us handle, I am aware of what the U.S.A. is speaking of, yes, the terms and the --

THE COURT: All right. You realize that if you're found guilty of more than one of these crime -- but there's only one charge, right, so there's no concerns about the consecutive

Page 17


MS. DAVIDSON: Yes. As to Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, there is only one charge, the conspiracy.

THE COURT: All right. You realize, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, that if you choose to represent yourself, as you're asking, you're on your own. And I mean by that, I can't tell you how to try your case. I can't give you any legal advice or any advice on how to try the case.

Do you understand that?

THE DEFENDANT: I am aware of those issues, yes.


THE DEFENDANT: I'm aware of what you're stating, and I get that I would be on my own.

THE COURT: Is that different than understanding?

THE DEFENDANT: Yes. I am aware. I am aware of everything that you're speaking to and --

THE COURT: But you don't understand it. Because if you don't understand it, I can't let you represent yourself.


THE COURT: I mean, that's what the rule says, and it's very simple.

THE DEFENDANT: Yes. And I get the implications, and I understand the implications of the word "understand." So I am aware, and I'm agreeing that I'm going to be going forward and doing my own case.

Page 18

THE COURT: Do you realize I can't tell you what to do or how to do it?

THE DEFENDANT: I'm -- I am aware of that and I agree to that.

THE COURT: Okay. Are you familiar with the Federal Rules of Evidence?

THE DEFENDANT: It's been a while, so I'm going to have to refresh myself on the Federal Rules of Evidence.

THE COURT: I take it you realize that the Federal Rules of Evidence will govern what evidence may or may not actually be introduced at trial, and in representing yourself, you have to abide by those rules.

THE DEFENDANT: With reservation to the jurisdiction issue that we still have to handle, yes, I am aware.

THE COURT: Always going to have the jurisdiction issue, so don't even raise it again. I will always let you file that motion as soon as we leave the court today. But we're going to play by the Federal Rules of Evidence with regard to evidence that comes in this court.

Do you understand that?

THE DEFENDANT: I'm aware of that and I agree to that.

THE COURT: Pardon?

THE DEFENDANT: I am aware of the Federal Rules of Evidence that will govern this particular case, and I agree to use those rules.

Page 19

THE COURT: All right. And do you understand if you're not familiar with them, that it can be a problem because you might not get something in evidence?

THE DEFENDANT: I am aware of that as well.

THE COURT: All right. Are you familiar with the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure?

THE DEFENDANT: Again, it's been a while since I've had to --

THE COURT: Do you realize that the Rules of Criminal Procedure govern the way that this Court will handle a criminal action here in Federal Court?

THE DEFENDANT: I'm aware that that's how this Court proceeds and how they do all their matters, yes.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you understand that if you decide to take the witness stand and decide to testify that you'll have to present the testimony by generally asking questions of yourself?

THE DEFENDANT: I am aware of that and have experienced that.

THE COURT: All right. So that there's a proper procedure for objections and things like that. You understand that?

THE DEFENDANT: I'm aware of that, yes.

THE COURT: All right. It's imperative for me to advise you that, in my opinion, that you would be far better off

Page 20

to be represented by a trained lawyer than you would be to represent yourself.

I think it's unwise of you to try to represent yourself in this type of a case where the stakes are high. I don't believe you are familiar with the Federal Rules as much as you need to be. I don't believe you're as familiar with court procedure as you ought to be. And I would strongly urge you not to represent yourself. That's just my opinion and my suggestion to you.

But in light of that, and in light of the penalty you might suffer if you're found guilty, and in light of all the difficulties of representing yourself, is it still your desire to represent yourself and give up the right to be represented by an attorney instead?

THE DEFENDANT: Again, I am aware of my capabilities.

I'm aware of my capacity to be able to take in new material or to refresh myself in old material and my ability to be able to present it as needs to be presented while conforming or practicing the particular rules that you have set forth that are going to govern these proceedings.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

THE DEFENDANT: So I'm very comfortable with -- in fact, I prefer it at this time.

THE COURT: Fair enough.

THE DEFENDANT: Again, with Mr. -- Mr. Lloyd's

Page 21

assistance administerially [sic].

THE COURT: Okay. So it is still then your desire to represent yourself and give up your right to be represented by an attorney.

THE DEFENDANT: It is my preference. And it is my choice that I'm going to implement to move forward as myself to present as myself and to present this case by my own --

THE COURT: Is it going to be that any descriptive word I use you're going to pick another word?

THE DEFENDANT: You know, after you get -- it's really --

THE COURT: Because I've tried so hard to be --

THE DEFENDANT: I'm just trying to create the record here. That's all. If there's any corrections, I can go ahead and go back and file corrections to anything.

THE COURT: I'm just figuring out if I say, "Is it your desire to represent yourself" --

THE DEFENDANT: It is my desire to move forward --

THE COURT: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

THE DEFENDANT: I'm sorry. I'm answering questions. I desire to move forward, and I choose to move forward, and I implement that choice now to move forward by myself as myself.

THE COURT: And I'm going to let you. I'm just trying to figure out if I say, as I've said --


Page 22

THE COURT: -- to -- I'm sorry.


THE COURT: Can I finish?

THE DEFENDANT: No, please.

THE COURT: Thank you. If I say to you, "Do you desire to represent yourself," most everybody I've had before says,

"Yes." You won't say yes because you want to change wording.

Okay. And what I'm trying to figure out, you say, "I want to make the record," does that mean that the record you're making is of something other than a choice to represent yourself?

Because if it is, you need to tell me that now.

THE DEFENDANT: No. I -- Your Honor, my record is just to establish that I am here, I am present, and I am moving forward as myself. Because of the legal standings, I agree that -- excuse me, I acknowledge that you and I disagree as to legal standings between pro se, pro per, sui juris, and all of
that. I get that.

So I'm just explaining to you that I will be moving forward as myself, not representing myself on behalf -- excuse me, not representing on behalf of myself, but representing or presenting as myself to the Court, speaking truthfully, true, accurate, and complete.

So, yes, just to make it easy, yes.

THE COURT: Yeah. Yes. You desire to represent yourself. Yes?

Page 23

THE DEFENDANT: Yes. I'll go back and correct it later. Yes.

THE COURT: And you give up your right to be represented by an attorney?

THE DEFENDANT: I know that you said not to bring this up, but without prejudice of reservation of the jurisdiction, I will -- which is why I didn't want to address the issue of pro se, pro per, et cetera until after we had done jurisdiction.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's suppose I find jurisdiction --


THE COURT: -- is appropriate here.

THE DEFENDANT: Okay. If -- whether you find it or you don't, the point was, is that there is a difference between me presenting on behalf of myself and me presenting as self, that I am myself. I'm not here on behalf of anyone. I'm not an attorney representing myself as an attorney. I am one and the same. I'm just me. And I'm going to be moving forward.

THE COURT: Every human that comes into this court has a right to represent themselves. You have that same right as every other person. They don't have the right to represent anybody else.


THE COURT: Only a lawyer can do that. And only a lawyer that's properly in this court can do that. So the only person you are representing is yourself.

Page 24

THE DEFENDANT: And that's just --

THE COURT: That's all I'm asking you.

THE DEFENDANT: And that is a matter of difference in legal status. And I'm just trying to say --

THE COURT: It isn't.

THE DEFENDANT: -- the correct legal status.

THE COURT: That's legal --

THE DEFENDANT: I know you disagree.

THE COURT: That's just legal wrong. It's just mumbo jumbo. It really isn't anything.


THE COURT: Are you giving --

THE DEFENDANT: To answer your question, yes, I will go forward.

THE COURT: All right. And are you giving up your right, waiving your right to be represented by a lawyer? That's a yes or no.

THE DEFENDANT: Without prejudice, yes.

THE COURT: Okay. And is your decision completely voluntary on your part?

THE DEFENDANT: Without prejudice, yes.

THE COURT: All right. All right. I am prepared to find that the defendant has knowingly and voluntarily waived her right to counsel, and I will permit her to represent herself.

Do you have any disagreement or objection to that

Page 25

finding, Ms. Davidson?

MS. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Any misstatement as far as you understand, Mr. Lloyd?

MR. LLOYD: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Now, she has requested that I appoint you as standby or elbow counsel to assist her in this matter in that capacity. Before I get to the qualifications on that, would you be willing to be so appointed?

MR. LLOYD: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: You understand the limited nature of that appointment?

MR. LLOYD: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That you are only to assist her, but you are always to assist her with regard to making a record, helping her with filing, being a liaison on her behalf to the Court, but you do not direct the case. It's her case.

Do you understand that?

MR. LLOYD: I understand that, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. You can provide her copies of and advice on the rules and procedure, but it's still her decision on how to try her case.

Do you understand that?

MR. LLOYD: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: So, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, before court this

Page 26

morning, did you --

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, might I be heard?


MS. DAVIDSON: Just briefly. The United States, it's not typically our role to object to standby counsel or counsel, but the rules provide that the defendant must be indigent to have appointed counsel.

THE COURT: I was just about to go over the --

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor. And I just wanted to point out several inadequacies with her interview. She says that she's fully supported by her husband, but she refuses to give any information regarding her husband.

And the defendant was arrested at the Trump Hotel, and we proffer that she was paying for that hotel, and it was $700 a night. If you also look at her travel, it looks that her travel, she has substantial means. And we would oppose her being treated as indigent simply because she chooses not to work.

Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

THE DEFENDANT: Your Honor, may I respond to that?

THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Lloyd, at every step from here on, you're not appointed yet. We're talking about you being appointed. But I hope you will advise her at least of her rights against self-incrimination that I've tried to remind her.

Page 27

I'm very willing to discuss the matters that we normally discuss in every case, because those shouldn't be detrimental or the least bit incriminating. But I never know what somebody is going to say, and it could be detrimental to them, so...

MR. LLOYD: Well, Your Honor, let me -- if I might, I was present this morning for the defendant's interview --


MR. LLOYD: -- that generated the recommendation offered to the Court this morning by pretrial services. With respect to the means of Ms. Tucci-Jarraf's husband, obviously, in the marshal's lockup, Mr. Jarraf was not there. I believe that he would be happy to talk with the pretrial services and probation officers about that.

I am informed that -- that the defendant did spend the night with two other people at the president's hotel inside the District of Columbia, and that it was for significantly less than $700, split three ways.

And apart from that, I would like to make it plain on the record that the defendant is advised by me, as standby counsel, that in responding to the Court's inquiries, she needs to make certain that she does not provide a response under oath that would place her at risk for prosecution of any crime against the United States or any of its states.

I have found Ms. Tucci-Jarraf to be very capable of understanding my advice and statements. I hope she continues to be.

Page 28

THE COURT: All right. I think she does too. I'm just trying to always at every turn remind people, because sometimes they just take off and start talking and eventually say something that's very detrimental to them.

MR. LLOYD: And I thank the Court for that, because I've had what feels like more than my share of very chatty defendants.

THE COURT: Yes, yes.

MR. LLOYD: Usually sitting in the backs of police cruisers.

THE COURT: Well, and invariably, they think that that is assisting them, and I can appreciate probably why, but because she's law trained, she would understand that none of that would really be beneficial to her in front of me, you know, in this particular case, because my decisions are very limited in these -- in these confines, if you will, to what I'm asking her. So I'm not trying her case. I'm not going to be trying her case, and I'm just trying to get through the basics on this.

So, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, prior to the hearing in this this morning, I believe you met with the probation officers and provided information, and then signed a financial affidavit.

Is that correct?

THE DEFENDANT: Yes, that is correct. I met with Ms. Smith.

Page 29

THE COURT: Pardon?

THE DEFENDANT: I did meet with Ms. Smith and signed a financial affidavit.

THE COURT: All right. And is the information you provided on there true and correct?

THE DEFENDANT: The only thing that seems to be -- as far as I said that -- where it says, "she shared her husband supports her financially," I said that he actually works and that money all goes to supporting our four children, and that I didn't know what his finances were because he had just received a new job with a promotion recently, so I wasn't sure what the amount was, and that they would have to speak to him when he showed up here in court. Obviously, there hasn't been a moment
for them to do that yet, but that he would willingly share that information.

As far as what I live off of, it is stated correctly in here with the bank accounts at 48, and as Mr. Lloyd had spoken about earlier regarding the room, it was accurate what he had stated. There was three people sharing the costs, and the room was well under the 700 -- it was 359 on a -- from the Internet.

So it was actually cheaper for us to stay there.

So I'm not sure where the State is getting the information on that. Then, again, I was picked up. So I don't know what the bill actually was at that point, the service and fees, taxes.

Page 30

THE COURT: So -- okay. So, generally, here's the questions I usually ask people. So all the money you have in all the bank accounts, security account, any kind of account of any nature is $48?

THE DEFENDANT: Yes. Other than the treasury direct deposit account, yes.

THE COURT: Other than what?

THE DEFENDANT: An account that I don't have access to, which is what I believe that they're alleging a conspiracy against.

THE COURT: Okay. And as far as employment for you, it says you last worked May 2016 from home, is that correct, as a consultant, lawyer consultant?

THE DEFENDANT: Actually, from -- until May 19th, 2016, I actually was traveling around the world doing a job, but that was to foreclose on a whole bunch of different international corporations. That job was done as of May 16th or May 19th.

And I came back here to start a consulting business. It was just starting and getting up off the ground when I was in DC.

So I hadn't received anything other than the $700, which I utilized for costs to stay in DC.

THE COURT: All right. So you've only earned $700 from that consulting business.


THE COURT: All right.

Page 31

THE DEFENDANT: And the amount 48, I don't know if that's the current amount right now. It could be a little less.

THE COURT: Go ahead. I'm sorry.

THE DEFENDANT: That was the -- the 48-dollar account and then a credit card, which has been since frozen, so those were my only two means.

THE COURT: And do I understand that you don't own any real property?

THE DEFENDANT: I have no real property, no.

THE COURT: And if you were to work -- if I were to release you and you were to work, do you have any idea what your income would be?

THE DEFENDANT: You know, probably around the same amount, 700 -- say 700 a month, and that would be very liberal --


THE DEFENDANT: -- at this point. Because of this case and everything else, I don't know if I would be able to get anything except for remedial, such as waitressing or anything else at this point --

THE COURT: All right.

THE DEFENDANT: -- due to this pending charge.

THE COURT: All right. And your husband is Youssef Jarraf?


Page 32

THE COURT: And he works at Logan International?

THE DEFENDANT: He would have to speak directly because I'm not sure of all the facts, but he works --

THE COURT: You don't know where your husband works?

THE DEFENDANT: Well, the new company that he started for --

THE COURT: I didn't ask that. I just asked where.

THE DEFENDANT: It's -- the Sky company is in Massachusetts -- Boston, Massachusetts, but they do all the servicing for -- as I understand it, they do all the servicing for the airplanes at Logan International Airport, which is where he's located.

THE COURT: So he works at Logan International.

THE DEFENDANT: But not for Logan International. It's for another company.

THE COURT: I didn't ask that. I just asked where. Okay. And just in rough numbers, what kind of income does he have per year?

THE DEFENDANT: May I inquire as to that?

THE COURT: You don't know?

THE DEFENDANT: Like I said, he got a raise. I don't know what --

THE COURT: Before he got the raise.

THE DEFENDANT: I believe it was a minimum wage starting and then there was a promotion or some amount higher

Page 33

that he's getting now.

THE COURT: All right.

THE DEFENDANT: But he would be able to confirm directly with Mr. Miller and Ms. Smith.

THE COURT: I assume that it's under $30,000 a year?

THE DEFENDANT: I would say that's a safe assumption.

THE COURT: Okay. And just for the sake of clarity, is Mr. Jarraf in the courtroom?


THE COURT: Is that accurate that you make less than $30,000 a year?


THE COURT: He said yes.

Returning to you, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, does that income also go to help support your four minor children?

THE DEFENDANT: As far as I know, all that income goes to supporting the four minor children. I haven't seen any of that income.

THE COURT: All right. All right. I'm going to find that she qualifies at this point to have appointed standby counsel.

I'm appointing you, Mr. Lloyd, to serve as elbow or standby counsel pursuant to the Criminal Justice Act, 18 U.S. Code Section 3006A. It is my hope that you will aid and, to some extent, relieve me of having to explain and enforce all the

Page 34

basic rules of courtroom protocol, procedure, and decorum. You should help Ms. Tucci-Jarraf with regard to procedural and evidentiary obstacles that she might find in completing a task, like we mentioned earlier, introducing evidence or objecting to testimony. And also you can provide her technical assistance in the presentation of her defense and preserving the record for appeal.

Do you understand the role?

MR. LLOYD: Yes, Your Honor. Could I ask the Court's indulgence with respect to appointing me as of this past Thursday when I first appeared in this case?

THE COURT: I take that is for voucher purposes?

MR. LLOYD: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: If you'll submit it as a nunc pro tunc, the Court will be inclined to do so. I want to think about that for a minute. But it's not anything we need to take up at this moment. So that will come later. Okay?

MR. LLOYD: Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. So at this point,

Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, you represent yourself. Mr. Lloyd will continue to aid you on a limited basis as your elbow or standby counsel.

All right. I understand we're here for a detention hearing. And what's the government's position and why?

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, we believe that

Page 35

Ms. Tucci-Jarraf is a risk of flight, and we ask that she be detained.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, we're going to have a detention hearing. In federal court, some people refer to it as a bail hearing or bond hearing, different terms. It's probably more technically correct to call it a detention hearing, but we operate under the rules of the Bail Reform Act in the federal statutes.

Are you familiar with the Bail Reform Act?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: No, I'm not.

THE COURT: All right. It will -- looks like Mr. Lloyd has his handy-dandy Federal Rules there, and if you'll turn to 18 U.S. Code, I think it's Section 3142. And you won't have time to get a complete primer on the rules, but, generally, I will be looking at the factors in Subsection G in making my decision on release or detention. So you can at least have that handy to go by.

All right. Any opening statements or do you just want to put on your first witness?

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, I just plan on proffering and arguing basically the pretrial services report.

THE COURT: All right.

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, if you -- and I know that you have thoroughly reviewed this, but we argue this based on the fact of her extensive travel in the past few years. You

Page 36

notice that she's been in Morocco, Italy, Spain, England, Switzerland, China, and she currently resides in Massachusetts.

She has zero ties to the Eastern District of Tennessee, no ties at all. She doesn't have employment. And we believe that she has no reason to come back and submit to this court.

She has at length talked about how this court has no jurisdiction over her, and I do not believe that she will submit to any orders of this court.

And based on the fact that she does not believe that this court has any personal jurisdiction over herself, we can't count on her to comply with any court orders by this court. And once she is released, I don't know how we can have any assurance that she will ever be back in the Eastern District of Tennessee.

So based on all this, Your Honor, we believe that the defendant is just too much of a risk of flight and should be detained.

I know that -- that the -- also the fact that I don't believe that she will comply with the laws. Now, we're not moving for that basis, but the defendant is on the Internet at length. She has quite -- she puts out YouTube videos. She espouses the fact that everyone is entitled to a special account, which is in the Federal Reserves, and they should all go out there and access it by using the routing number. And so she's a proponent of commit -- asking other people to violate the law. And we're very troubled of that also. We do not

Page 37

believe that she will comply with the laws of the United States if she is released.

However, at this point, we are most concerned that she will not comply with any bond requirements or any orders of this court. And so we ask that she not be released.

THE COURT: All right. Anything else?

MS. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, do you wish to put on any evidence?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Yeah. Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Well, first off, I'd like to state across the board that U.S.A. does not carry her burden.

THE COURT: Say what?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: That the U.S. attorney did not carry her burden to prove that I would be a flight risk. All of my recent movements have been to the U.S., not from. Also to -- I've also made arrangements to live in housing here in your judicial district --

THE COURT: Oh, okay.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- for the duration of this case. It's already prepaid by colleagues of mine that I worked with throughout the United States, as well as internationally. This case is a matter of extreme public interest, so it behooves me to actually move forward with this case to its final

Page 38

disposition, whatever that may be. Also I'm willing to comply with all the bond requirements if any are set. I have a passport, which I'm more than willing to surrender. My travel, extensive travel over the years, I do acknowledge that I have had extensive travel, but it was for my work. I had over 250 corporations that I had to foreclose on throughout the world. And that -- once that work was done, which was January of 2016, I made arrangements for my family and myself to move back here so we could start doing the actual announcements, so all of my ties are actually with the United States.

I have no residencies or ties in any other countries. Like I said, even the work that I did in those years was specifically due to making foreclosures on registrations and giving notices to them directly.

THE COURT: Have you traveled since May of 2016?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: No. Just to Washington state where my --


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- father is, but that's it.


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: So, again, I have residency, which I gave --

THE COURT: Where would you -- where would you be residing in this district?

Page 39

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Mr. Lloyd has that address.

THE COURT: Where would that be, Mr. Lloyd?

MR. LLOYD: If Your Honor please, it's in Oak Ridge, and I'm searching for the specific address.

One of the witnesses here for this defendant is the person who offered that residence for rent via [Air] BnB and could inform the court about that arrangement.

THE COURT: Okay. That's fine.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I have a number of witnesses that have traveled from different areas of the United States to be here, and more than likely a number of witnesses for myself will be here during the entire proceedings through the disposition of this case. If the Court would like to hear from the property manager of where I will be staying and have already prepaid for --

THE COURT: Sure. You can call any witness you'd like.


THE COURT: This is your case now. You're in charge.

You have to remain seated yourself, but they can come on up.

MR. LLOYD: I was about to ask Your Honor whether you wanted the defendant to be at the podium.

THE COURT: Yeah. If she can just move the mic closer so I can be sure we get everything down that she says.

Ma'am, if you'll come up here. This is where the witnesses sit.

Page 40

So if you'll be sure to speak into the microphone so the witness can hear you.

If you'll raise your right hand, ma'am.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? If so, please say, "I do."


THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you. You may be seated.

THE COURT: Be sure to ask her her name and how to spell it.


THE COURT: You can have a seat, yes.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Your Honor, I'm not able to see her.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to come up to the podium?


THE COURT: All right. If the marshals have no objection, we'll have her come up to the microphone, and they'll be right behind you. Thank you.

No. You can stay --

THE WITNESS: Oh, okay.

THE COURT: -- seated. She goes up there, not you. Just pull that microphone down to you and speak right into it.

Okay. Thank you, ma'am.

Page 41


Marie Wasilik - Direct Examination


was called as a witness and, after having been first duly sworn,

testified as follows:



Q Good morning. Could you please state your name and spell your last name for the record?

A My name IS Marie Suzanne Wasilik. And my last name is W-a-s-i-l-i-k.

Q And at this hearing, we're discussing about a possible residence for me to stay in this judicial district. Could you please state the address of that particular residence?


Q Okay. And is it correct that you are in agreement to rent that property to me --

A Yes, yes.

Q -- for the duration of this case?

A Uh-huh.

Q Okay. And I believe it's -- some of it has been paid already. Is that correct?

A Correct.

Q How much has been paid already?

A $824.

Q And that was paid by one of my colleagues. Is that correct?

Page 42

Marie Wasilik - Direct Examination

A (Moving head up and down.)

Q Which colleague was that?

A That was Bill Ferguson.

Q And he's in the --

THE COURT: How do you spell that?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: If I might, Your Honor?


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: It's -- his full name is William T. --

THE COURT: Well, all I need is what she testified to, which is Bill somebody.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. Ferguson. F -- excuse me. S-o-n is the ending of Ferguson.

THE COURT: F-e-r-g-u-s-o-n?


THE WITNESS: F-e-r-g-u-s-o-n.



Q And approximately how many minutes is that residence from this courthouse?

A I'm about 30 minutes away. I don't know how many miles that is.

Q Okay. So about 30-minute drive to this courthouse?

A Yeah.

Page 43

Marie Wasilik - Direct Examination

Q Okay. And as far as the remainder of the payment, there's a schedule -- a payment schedule that's been arranged --

A Right.

Q -- correct?

A Right. I -- I've been paid that 824 up front, and then there's pending payments as the time goes on.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Right. Okay. All right. Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: And what are those? What are those payments? What does 824 get you?

THE WITNESS: That's for the beginning of a three-month stay. Bill Ferguson has paid up till the 27th of November.

THE COURT: Okay. And then after that, what's the payment schedule, how much a month?

THE WITNESS: Well, it seems like I've got -- it ends at the 27th, but I -- and the whole payment was something like a thousand, $1400, but I've only got 825 of it. So as the time goes on, I get, you know, maybe October, I get -- I'll get another 300 and something. I haven't studied the details.


Q I believe -- is it -- you sent over a payment schedule that another payment was due in September, towards the end of September and another one towards the end of October? Does that sound correct?

A I think so.

Page 44

Marie Wasilik - Direct Examination

Q And the total is about $1500 with the -- with the service fee --

A Right.

Q -- for the Airbnb website --

A Right.

Q -- that you market on?

A Right.

Q Okay.

THE COURT: And how much is it a month?

THE WITNESS: 1400 divided by three.

THE COURT: So about 466.66?

THE WITNESS: It's quite cheaper than -- it's around $15 a day.

THE COURT: Okay. That's fair enough. Okay.


Q And is it a separate residence?

A It's a little mother-in-law apartment within my house. It's got a kitchen, a bathroom, a bedroom with a trundle bed, and a little living room.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. Thank you. I have no further questions. Thank you.

THE COURT: Thank you very much. Anything from you, Ms. Davidson?

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.


Page 45

Marie Wasilik - Cross-Examination

Q Ms. Tucci-Jarraf keeps talking about William Ferguson being one of her colleagues. Colleagues in what?

A I don't know.

Q And what is your relationship with Mr. Bill Ferguson?

A He's a friend of mine.

Q And do you have any prior relationship with Ms. Tucci-Jarraf?

A No.

Q Do you also live at this residence?

A Yes.

Q And so tell me exactly how this whole transaction occurred. Did Mr. Ferguson find out you had a room for rent?

A Right. He researched the Airbnb and found -- and was looking for a place to house Heather for three months.

Q And so you have no relationship with the defendant?

A No.

Q So you would be simply a landlord?

A Correct. Yeah.

Q What does Mr. Ferguson do?

A I think he's an IT guy, and he's getting his PhD in some kind of rocket space science.

Q Do you have a job?

A No. I'm a retired mail carrier.

Page 46

Marie Wasilik - Redirect Examination

MS. DAVIDSON: May I have a minute, Your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

MS. DAVIDSON: That's all I have. Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Anything further,

Ms. Tucci-Jarraf?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Just, Your Honor, that Mr. Lloyd has pulled up the actual receipt for the payment as well as the payment schedule from an actual Airbnb website that most people who rent their properties on --


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- so that we do have an actual receipt --

THE COURT: All right.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- that can be made available to --

THE COURT: I don't think anybody questions that she's been paid 824.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. Just a matter to clean the record, I have one question for her.

THE COURT: Sure. Sure. Absolutely.



Q Just to clean up the record, you mentioned that Mr. Ferguson was getting his degree for rocket scientist. Is that perhaps what his daughter is getting who works for NASA?

A I was just reading his profile on the Airbnb, so I --

Page 47

Marie Wasilik - Redirect Examination

maybe I was confused.

Q Okay. All right. Just any other -- was there any other contact by any of my other colleagues to be able to check out the room or rent the room? It was just William Ferguson that you spoke to?

A Yeah.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. Thank you. No further questions.

THE COURT: Thank you.

Anything else, Ms. Davidson?

MS. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Ms. Wasilik.

You can

Thank you.


-- have a seat back in the audience.

Thank you, ma'am.

THE WITNESS: I got to pay my parking meter.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Do you have any other witnesses?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: If I might have just a second, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Sure. Absolutely.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: The only other thing that I would like to ask the Court for permission is for my husband to hand

Page 48

me my passport so that I can at least present that to the Court showing that it's here so that if there is a recommendation for surrendering it, to be able to have personal recognizance or to go by the probation's report, the Court knows that it's here.

THE COURT: I have no problem with that. But I just ask him to hand it to the marshal.


THE COURT: And let the marshal hand it to Mr. Lloyd.

Mr. Lloyd can present it to the Court.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you. So Mr. Lloyd has the passport.

THE COURT: Is that the only passport you have?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: It is the only passport that I have.


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: And I am willing to surrender that for the duration of this case until disposition is made.


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I also would like to confirm to the Court that I would be staying -- if the Court agrees to this, that I would be staying at the residence that has been offered by witness testimony for the duration of this case until disposition is made.

THE COURT: Okay. Part of the question, of course, the Court would have is, who's going pay for the rest of the three months, and who's going to pay after that?

Page 49

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: As far as the rest of three months or if this case goes longer and we have to extend the stay, it will be myself. I plan on doing any kind of work that I'm able to once I get out. I have a -- I do have a lot of contacts, and most of my work is -- can be done at home, producing documents, et cetera, document data processing, as well as any of my former colleagues.

And when the State had asked about colleagues, these are people I've worked with in media. They're people I've worked with in -- on different industries such as medical, et cetera that have -- are in support of all this information coming out, and that I stay here for the duration of this case so that that information can come out, because it is --

THE COURT: Would it require you to travel outside of this area?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: No. No. I can stay here. I do not need to travel except for to visit with my attorney or to come to court.

THE COURT: All right. There's a gentleman in the back that raised his hand when I asked who was going to pay for all this.

And what's your name, sir?

MR. FERGUSON: William Ferguson.

THE COURT: Well, your name has been taken wouldn't say in vain, but it's been uttered here. Are you willing to

Page 50

continue to pay the rent on Ms. Wasilik's room for Ms. Tucci-Jarraf for the at least foreseeable future for, say, the next six months?

MR. FERGUSON: Yes, sir.


MR. FERGUSON: I'm not a rocket scientist.

THE COURT: I'm not either. All right. Any other -- if you'll hand that up, Mr. Lloyd.

MR. LLOYD: May I approach?

THE COURT: You may.

MR. LLOYD: For the record, I have shown the passport to counsel for the government.

THE COURT: All right. If you'll just hand that to probation. I don't really need to see it. They're the ones that would secure it and maintain it.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. Thank you.

THE COURT: Okay. Any other witnesses that you would want to call?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: At this moment, Your Honor, I do not have any further witnesses nor evidence to present to this Court in regards to the detention hearing matter.

THE COURT: Okay. Any further argument, Ms. Davidson?

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor. Just regard to the residence. Your Honor, this is a -- all the defendant has offered is that she has a resident available to her in Oak Ridge

Page 51

prepaid by someone else. There's still no evidence that she would actually go there. She has that ability if she chooses to, but her family, her husband, her four kids all reside in a different district.

She still, with the exception of showing that she has an apartment available for her use if she chooses to use so, has not shown any ties to this district. And so we -- and we continue to point out that she does not believe that this Court has any jurisdiction over her.

Thank you, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, do you have argument to make on behalf of yourself?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Yes, Your Honor. All that the government has offered assumes that I will not honor my obligations to this -- to bail or to Court or to the honor of the letter of the law that we are addressing in these matters.

I have dedicated my life for 17 years to law, and I understand when there -- regardless of whether there's a disagreement or a different position as far as what law is applicable, I have always, always gone in to reconcile those matters in a very peaceful way and always honoring my obligations.

I have sworn to this Court under oath that I am going to be making these court appearances. You have already on the record that I did have a criminal matter that I had to attend to in Washington state, which I didn't have any failure to appears.

Page 52

I've never failed to appear.

I have been a member of the bar system. I've been a member of the courts, an officer of the courts at one time. And I understand the implications as well as the importance of meeting these obligations.

So I have my word and my honor, and if the Court requires any further assurances that I will be making these court dates, other than just my word and my performance history, then I'm willing to hear those and then make comment on that as well. I've already surrendered my passport, so I'm not able to travel, and I don't have a license, so I'm not able to drive anywhere. I'm going to be living at that address until this Court -- again, this Court has resolved and disposed of this matter.

THE COURT: All right. So if I were to release you, you would need to sign the three-page order that we have that releases you on conditions and sets forth the conditions. Of course, we would provide you a copy of that, so you would know precisely what all the conditions are.

Are you agreeable to signing such a document?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I am agreeable to signing such a document.

THE COURT: It also provides that -- where you sign it and before you sign it that you promise to obey all the conditions of release and to appear as directed and to surrender

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for service of any sentence that might be imposed.

Do you so agree?


THE COURT: All right. Now, in this particular case, the assistant United States attorney has indicated that you don't have any prior residence here, and that all of your contacts appear to be elsewhere. Where does your husband live?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: My husband lives at the Lynn address.

THE COURT: Lynn, Massachusetts.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Lynn, Massachusetts, yes.

THE COURT: And he --

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: But he flies here for -- when we can, if there's the money to afford him to fly, he will be here at these hearings to support me.

THE COURT: And your four children, where do they live?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: They live at the same address or have lived at the same address, but due to this court case and since I'm -- was the primary caregiver, my sister is stepping in to help with the children to be able to get them to school and everything else, because Youssef works. So they will be staying with her until this case is disposed of.

THE COURT: Well, you said they lived at the same address. They live in Lynn, Massachusetts?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: They have lived in Lynn

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Massachusetts, I said, for the same amount of time I have. But just recently we've had to have them go to be with my sister and my father, so that they can do schooling, and Youssef is able to work to be able to support them, since I'm the primary caregiver for the children, to make sure that they get to school and take care -- because we have four minor children, as I told Ms. Smith.

THE COURT: Right. Where do they live?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: They right now are in transition over to -- they're in Washington state, have been for the last three weeks doing a vacation, but due to this case --

THE COURT: Where do they live?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: In Gig Harbor, Washington.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you own any residence there?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: No. They are staying with my sister, and my father is close by to assist her.

THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Davidson also raised the specter of no employment, but you've indicated to me that you intend to try to secure some form of employment acknowledging that you'll have to stay in this area, even if you get employed.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Yes. The -- I had started a startup just prior to being picked up in DC. And that allows me -- that startup allows me to work from home and to do data processing or document creation, so I'm able to work from -- from the residency that Ms. Wasilik gave you.

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THE COURT: So the tougher issue is that Ms. Davidson says that she doesn't -- you wouldn't believe that I have any authority over you, so you wouldn't submit to the orders of this Court because you don't believe I have any jurisdiction. So that if you don't believe I have any jurisdiction, then you do what you want, because I have no say-so.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: May I respond?

THE COURT: Please.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: As I had said before, when there is a matter of jurisdiction or a matter where we don't agree on what law is applicable, I still have a long performance history of 17 years -- obviously, when we do the jurisdiction issue, there will be the matter of the fact that the United States, which is a federal corporation, was foreclosed, but yet I still travel with a passport, because that's what's required by customs agents, et cetera. I have followed all of the laws and regulations until such time as there is a disposition in that matter.

And, again, I have requested the hearing so we could do a disposition on -- or excuse me, a decision, determination on jurisdiction. If I just believe there's no jurisdiction, I would have just taken off without any regard, but that's not the case. I have highest regard for law, and this is a matter of just a conflict of law that we need to determine in a very peaceful and in a procedural way, which is what we're doing.

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THE COURT: Right. And I'm going to give you a full hearing on that issue on a separate day and time. But if I release you, I need to know that until I make a ruling on that issue, that you understand that your release is conditional based on my order.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: That I absolutely understand.

THE COURT: You have to understand that you have to submit to this release order.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I -- I'm aware of that, I understand that, and I agree to that until we are able to determine that.

THE COURT: And you have to understand that if you don't, then I will issue a warrant for your arrest and have you brought in here and will go over the violation, which would probably result in you being locked up.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I'm very aware of that. And after the 30-day tour that the U.S. Marshals just gave me, I'm not looking to repeat that at all.

THE COURT: Okay. If you abide by the rules and follow my conditions, you won't have a single problem with that.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I do accept your -- your rules at this time to go -- to go forward with the determination. Even then, I still will accept the determination as you make it on that day.

THE COURT: All right. So I think what I'm hearing,

Ms. Davidson, is she at least accepts my authority for purposes

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of her release, although she still retains and reserves the right to argue about the Court's overall jurisdiction, either over her or over the case or both. Is that a fair statement,

Ms. Tucci-Jarraf?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: That is a true and accurate and complete statement. Thank you.

THE COURT: Okay. All right. Let me take just a couple minutes. I want to talk to probation about some specifics, and then I will come right back and give you my decision.

If Ms. Tucci-Jarraf needs to use the facilities or needs a break or anything like that, you can do that, otherwise, I don't anticipate my recess to be very long, so everybody can stay seated. If anybody else needs to go outside, do it now, because I'll be resuming probably in about the next five to seven minutes.

Okay. All right. Court stands in recess at this time.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. This honorable court stands in recess.

THE COURT: When we come back, I'm going to go over scheduling, so be ready for that irrespective. Okay?

(Recess from 12:01 p.m. to 12:09 p.m.)

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. This Court is again in session with the Honorable C. Clifford Shirley, Jr., United

States Magistrate Judge, presiding.

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Please come to order and be seated.

THE COURT: All right. Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, I have decided that I believe you would be a candidate for release, provided you agree to all these conditions and that you agree to sign the same.

Okay. So I want to go over real quickly with you just so you understand them.

You're not to violate federal, state, or local law while you're out on release. Whatever you do, you're not to break the law in any way, shape, form, or fashion, any law.

Do you understand that?


THE COURT: Do you agree to that?


THE COURT: Okay. Can you pull that down for her,

Mr. Lloyd, just so she doesn't have to be so uncomfortable trying to speak into it?

Yes, ma'am?

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, just to be clear,

Ms. Tucci-Jarraf is not a licensed attorney and should not be practicing law except with regard to herself. And if the United States learns of any practice of law, we will bring it to the Court's attention.

THE COURT: All right. Practicing law without a license is a violation of the law, and so you're not to do that.

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Mr. Lloyd?

MR. LLOYD: I just couldn't resist the urge to respond, but I would like to.

MS. DAVIDSON: You're not the attorney.

MR. LLOYD: Every unauthorized practice of law is a crime.

THE COURT: Whatever. We'll --

MR. LLOYD: I hear the bell, Your Honor, and I start to run out.

THE COURT: I understand. And just stay calm and carry on.

Bottom line is, you're not to break the law. Okay. If there's a dispute over whether what you're doing violates the law, I may be the arbiter of that. I would stay away from that, because you don't know what I would decide.

If I decide it is a violation of the law, then you get locked up. If it's not a violation of the law, you stay out.

That's a pretty bad risk to run. So just stay away from anything that might be close.

Okay. You're to be living at the address you told me and nowhere else. And if you were to change that address or that phone, which you're not going to be allowed to do, unless you get permission in advance.


THE COURT: Will you have -- is there a land line there

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at that residence? Do we know?

Ms. Wasilik, is there a land line phone?

MS. WASILIK: Yes, sir. There's a land line. I can't hear on the cell phone.

THE COURT: That's okay. What is the phone number there?


THE COURT: All right. And does it have any extra features on that phone, like Call Waiting, any of that?

MS. WASILIK: It's got Call Waiting. No. I don't know. Yeah. It's got Caller ID. And I'm not sure if it's got Call Waiting.

THE COURT: All right. The reason I ask, one of the conditions is going to be the electronic monitoring for Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, and that requires a land line without any of those features. Now, you can have one put in in the residence, part of the residence that you're in.

MS. WASILIK: Uh-huh.

THE COURT: Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, where she's going to be in, like the mother-in-law's quarters.


THE COURT: If she can get a separate phone line put in there, that's fine.


THE COURT: If not, we're going to have to use yours.

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THE COURT: And that will just mean that the phone company will have to take those features off it.


THE COURT: So that could be an inconvenience for you. So, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, it may require you to get a separate phone line.

Do you understand that?


THE COURT: The electronic monitoring works off a land line.


MS. WASILIK: Can you have Call Waiting -- I mean, Caller ID?

THE COURT: Yep. I think -- what do you -- is Caller ID okay?

PROBATION OFFICER: It just needs to be a basic phone line with no features.

THE COURT: Yeah. That's what I've understood. It has to be a clean line.


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: May I just confer with Ms. Wasilik to make sure it's okay to put an extra phone line in at my cost?

THE COURT: Would it be okay if she put another phone line in at her cost?

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MS. WASILIK: With Airbnb, of course, most everybody uses their cell phone. If there's a place to put one.

THE COURT: Okay. Yeah. So that will be something you'll want to do. Okay?


THE COURT: Do you agree to that?


THE COURT: Okay. You're also to obviously report to court as required. I'm going to give you a motion day for hearing your motions, and then we'll have a trial day for you to also appear for your trial, if it gets that far. Okay?


THE COURT: All right. You're also to be supervised by a probation officer. I'm not sure who it will be, but it doesn't matter. That person will contact you from time to time and ask you to do certain things. It's incumbent upon you to do them, whether it's appear at probation here or if it's to meet them at your residence or anything, you must do whatever they say. It's just like me telling you to do it. Okay?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I'm familiar with that.

THE COURT: All right. If they -- they're under instructions that if you don't, or if you're not there, they're to pick up the phone and call me, and usually I just issue a warrant for your arrest. Okay?


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MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: You're to continue or actively seek employment. So I would like you to work. Be careful what you're working at. I wouldn't work at anything that might be the least bit questionable to the U.S. Attorney's Office as far as employment. And -- but I just think working would be a good thing for you.

And I tell everybody that will listen, that almost everybody that I have out on release that works never violates.

And almost everybody I let out that doesn't work violates.

So you're to surrender your passport. You've already done that. The other part of that coin is, you're not to obtain a new passport. Your travel is currently restricted to the Eastern District of Tennessee. Okay. So Mr. Lloyd can advise you of the parameters. It's basically East Tennessee. But if you needed to go somewhere, if you had a family emergency or something like that, the bottom line is, you have to seek permission before you go.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: And just to be clear --


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- as far as seeking permission --


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- do I contact the probation officer?

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THE COURT: Yes. You will have a specific probation supervising officer. You contact them.


THE COURT: Generally, we grant permission without a problem, provided we know a few things, where you're going, when you're coming back, who you're going to be with, and why you're going.


THE COURT: Okay. If you don't get permission -- here's the problem, if you don't get permission, then you get arrested when you get there or you get arrested as soon as you get back. So just get permission. Okay? It sounds like a bit of a nuisance, but it's vital.

Do you understand that?


THE COURT: Also with you being on electronic monitoring, it will be incumbent, because the second you left, it would look like you were a fleeing felon, okay, or something like that. Do you know what I'm talking about?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Yeah, I believe that was one of --

THE COURT: So I don't want you to do that. Don't get anybody upset.


THE COURT: You're to avoid any contact with anybody who might be a witness or a victim in this case or your

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codefendant, Randall Beane. You're not to have any contact with any of those people. So any of the people out at the facility, wherever that was, I can't remember, they -- anybody that might be a witness or a victim or your codefendant.

Okay? Do you understand that?


THE COURT: All right. You look like you're bothered.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Well, no. I'm just -- I have a question --


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- if I might. For preparation for the case, because a lot of the testimony has to be gone over and prepared for the case, how am I to do that if I can't have contact with Randall Beane or his attorney?

THE COURT: Well, you can have contact with his attorney.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: And if he's pro se, then what do I do?

THE COURT: Then we'll have to take that up. But at this point, he's represented by an attorney.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Right. It was just my understanding he has a hearing today to determine whether to fire that attorney and proceed pro se, so that I wanted to clear that with the Court before we go out of this courtroom and then I have to make a motion.

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THE COURT: When you go out of this courtroom, he currently has an attorney, and he may still have an attorney come tomorrow.


THE COURT: Or he may not. But I have to deal with what's happening right now at this moment. And right now at this moment, you can't talk to him.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Fair enough. I understand that.

THE COURT: If you both end up pro se, then you can file a motion for contact and we'll have to take that up. Okay.

It would be probably -- Mr. Lloyd could help you, would probably be a motion to modify conditions. Okay?

So you're not to have a firearm or any destructive device or other weapon. Okay? That has nothing to do with your rights to have a gun. It has to do everything with a probation officer walks in where you're living, there's not to be a gun in there. Okay?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I understand.

THE COURT: So you're not to excessively use alcohol and you're not to unlawfully possess any narcotic drug or controlled substance. You're not to have any controlled substance unless you have a prescription from a licensed doctor.

Do you understand that?


THE COURT: So I'm only going to -- I'm not going to

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put you on home incarceration or home detention at this point. I'm just going to give you a curfew, eight o'clock at night till eight in the morning, and then put you on electronic monitoring.

Okay. If you have problems doing that, I may have to up the detention. But for now, you can get permission to go where you need to go, and just be home by eight o'clock at night, and not leave before eight in the morning. Okay?

Is that -- if that works a hardship with you, you'll let Mr. Lloyd know, and he'll tell you how to contact us about changing that. Okay?


THE COURT: But given your lifestyle and everything at this point, that sounds like it's pretty fair. Okay?

You're to submit to location monitoring. They'll set up the phone line with you. You're to report as soon as possible to your pretrial -- or probation officer if you were to be stopped by any law enforcement officer for any reason. Okay. So if anybody stops you, questions you, anything, you need to contact your probation officer first. Okay?

On the back page where you're going to sign, it provides that if you violate any of these conditions, what I've told you before, I will issue a warrant for your arrest, and potentially revoke your release.

It also advises you that if you were to commit another federal felony while you are out on release, it could be up to

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an additional ten years in prison.

It also provides that if you were to obstruct a criminal investigation or if you were to retaliate or attempt to retaliate, tamper with or attempt to tamper with, intimidate or attempt to intimidate any witness, any victim, or any informant, that's another ten years in prison. Which is why I standardly,
you know, put in there stay away from your codefendants, because you don't want to take a chance that somebody alleges, "Oh, she was trying to tamper with me," or "She was trying to intimidate
me," or something like that. You don't -- that wouldn't work to your benefit.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I understand.

THE COURT: I don't have to decide who's telling the truth if you just stay away from them. But, invariably, people get together and somebody claims something, and the other person says no. With ten years of prison on the line, you'll have to make the decision about the risk in that.

So you understand all those?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I'm aware and I understand it all.

Thank you.

THE COURT: Okay. It says here, where you're going to sign, you acknowledge that you are the defendant in this case and you are aware of the conditions of release.

Is that correct?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: That's correct.

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THE COURT: You will sign where it says, "I promise to obey all conditions of release to appear as directed and surrender to serve any sentence imposed."

Is that correct?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: That is correct.

THE COURT: And, finally, it says, "I am aware of the penalties and sanctions set forth above."

Is that correct?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: That is accurate and correct.

THE COURT: All right. If you'll hand that up to

Ms. Davidson first for review, and then over to Ms. Tucci-Jarraf to sign. We'll have some -- a little more of the hearing to conclude.

And, Mr. Sanchez, where will she be released from?

U.S. MARSHAL: She will be released from Maloneyville, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. While you're looking at that -- because you have been incarcerated, we need to have you processed out of that facility, and I suspect you may have some personal effects there as well. Most do.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I was on a 30-day tour.

THE COURT: Anyway, bottom line is, they are going to take you back to -- when he said Maloneyville, that's the location of the facility, and then once they process you out, give you clothes, you'll be able to be released from there.

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So whoever is going to pick her up, we can give you directions to Maloneyville. It's out far east and north Knoxville, out by Three Ridges -- next door to Three Ridges Golf Course, out there, and she won't be released anytime soon unfortunately. They don't -- and by that, I mean, like within
the next 30 minutes to an hour. They have to take some time to do that. And we're sort of at their mercy as to when they get around to that. But it will be today. And they will release you today.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: May I just make one request of this Court?


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: If they could write "forthwith" just at the top. I know that, as you said, we're at the mercy of them, but if you could put "forthwith" at the top of the release order.

THE COURT: That order doesn't go to them. That order is for you. They will be orally instructed to process you out.

Mr. Sanchez, if you will ask them to process her forthwith.

U.S. MARSHAL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: That the Court asked for that. Okay?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: That's the best I can do.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you, Your Honor.

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THE COURT: Uh-huh.

Mr. Lloyd?

MR. LLOYD: Your Honor, may I address a housekeeping issue?

THE COURT: Well, it depends. How housekeeping is it?

MR. LLOYD: Very much so, I believe. I'm sure the defendant moves that the parties be allowed to retain the pretrial services report given to the parties earlier during this hearing or just before it.

THE COURT: What about that, Probation?

Mr. Miller, start with you.

PROBATION OFFICER: That would be your decision, Your Honor, since the pretrial report is property of the Court.

THE COURT: Okay. Do you want to keep yours,

Ms. Davidson?

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. That will be fine, Mr. Lloyd.

MR. LLOYD: Thank you, Your Honor.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: The pretrial services report for your edification, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, is the Court's. So it's not for public dissemination. It's a privilege sometimes that I give lawyers the right to retain it. But I don't expect it to ever be publicized. It's my report that probation prepares for me.

I share with the lawyers so we all are operating off the same

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song sheet, so to speak, and that everybody has the same information and that everybody can have their due process.


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I'll accept that and honor that and won't publish it.

THE COURT: All right. So you've signed your name and you've added all this stuff again. "With full responsibility and liability," what does that -- how is that different than just signing your name? What does that change?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Just an express -- that's the signature I use so that if there's anything -- the without prejudice, because there's three there. With responsibility, liability, and without prejudice, meaning if there's something that's not in that contract that is applicable, but hasn't been told to me, so a disclosure of material fact, then it's -- then it can't prejudice me. However, everything that you've stated in there, I'm fully responsible and liable for agreeing to those terms.

THE COURT: Well, I don't really know what that means. But I can't assure you that any of that will have any legal significance just because you stuck it in there.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: It's okay.

THE COURT: Okay. I just wanted you to know that.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I accept that. It's your position.

THE COURT: All right. I will, though, approve with my

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signature only your release.

Now, let's try to go quickly, because it's late. I have a full afternoon docket.

Mr. Lloyd, when you were ostensibly representing her or possibly representing her, you filed a number of motions. The first was a motion for leave to have a court reporter and a videographer.

We have provided a court reporter here today.

Videographer would be denied. As I mentioned to the crowd earlier, no video allowed in the courtroom.

Do you have anything further on that motion?

MR. LLOYD: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Second motion was a motion to correct the minutes. You said that at this hearing the defendant stated hers was a special appearance and that she was presenting as self.

I have no idea what that means. That's legalese or mumbo jumbo that means nothing. She either was here as Heather Ann Tucci-Jarraf or she's not.

What's that mean?

MR. LLOYD: Your Honor, the defendant has adopted the motions I necessarily filed --


MR. LLOYD: -- because I alone had access --


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MR. LLOYD: -- Sunday to the Court's filing system. I will, with the Court's leave, allow the defendant to speak to that.

THE COURT: All right. What's wrong with the minutes as they -- as they appear? The minutes say, "The parties appeared for initial appearance and arraignment."

Do you agree with that?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: It was -- as far as -- no, I do not. The actual record when he put in the minutes of the record, he stated I -- that it was noted exactly as I had said, that I had said that I was there by special appearance.

THE COURT: You're not here by special appearance.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: No. But at that time he said that it was being noted, and those are the exact words, so --

THE COURT: Well, he may have noted it, but --

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- it's just a correction to the minutes.

THE COURT: Well, the minutes aren't a transcript. It says that you were present for an initial appearance and arraignment. Did you do an initial appearance and arraignment
on that date?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: No. I did an initial appearance.

However, we reserved -- we made a reserve -- reservation to enter a plea of guilty or not guilty after the jurisdiction matter had been resolved.

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THE COURT: So I saw that you put that in there, and I checked with every person that was present, and they all said that you entered a plea of not guilty and reserved the right to contest jurisdiction.

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor. That is exactly what happened. I was here and --

THE COURT: That's what the judge said, that's what the law clerk said, that's what the --

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: If that is the case, I'm going to go by the audio record on that, because I'd been up for 48 hours and transferred from Georgia to here and then put into a courtroom. So --

THE COURT: All right. So for --

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- it is quite possible.

THE COURT: -- for purposes of clarification, which plea do you enter, guilty or not guilty?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Not guilty.

THE COURT: All right. So we'll make sure your plea is noted at least as of today.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: It says you do not want appointed counsel at that time and wish to represent yourself.

Is that true?

We covered that today already.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Well, yeah. I think we've covered

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that today.

THE COURT: Okay. Let's see. Your other complaint was you reserved whether to accept appointed counsel. That's -- that's what you said at that hearing. Right?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: That was at that time, yes.

THE COURT: All right. We resolved the guilty plea issue. Okay. Thank you.

So with regard to that motion, I'll basically deny it, based on what we've covered here today. The minutes speak for themselves.

The next is the motion for a continuance and extension of deadlines, Ms. Jarraf -- Ms. Tucci-Jarraf. I apologize. In this case, it says that you first appeared here on August 24th and trial is set in just over 30 days, October the 3rd.

Obviously, that's too quick for a trial, and you have every right to ask for a continuance. This motion does that.

This motion also asks to extend the pretrial deadlines.

For example, how much time you have to do a motion and -- because actually the motion deadline has technically run, but we're going to give you some more time, don't worry, and to prepare adequately for trial. Is that correct?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Yes. Does that also include the discovery, because --


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. So for discovery and all

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that, yes, I need some more time, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Correct. All right. So let's talk about scheduling. Now, with regard to discovery, when can you get that over to Ms. Jarraf -- Tucci-Jarraf?

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, seven days from this hearing.

THE COURT: All right. And why don't we do this, why don't you be the liaison, Mr. Lloyd, so it's easy, so that there's no contact between Ms. Davidson and Ms. Tucci-Jarraf.

She'll get the discovery to you, you get it promptly to Ms. Tucci-Jarraf. Okay?

MR. LLOYD: I will do, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Let's look at a new trial date. What are we looking at, Rachel?

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: How far out did you want to go?

THE COURT: What are you thinking, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf?

How much time do you think you're going to need to get ready?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: If I might just look at a calendar real quick.


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. Your Honor, with that -- to give us enough time to try this matter properly and reasonably,

I would ask that the Court look for dates the 4th of December or after.

THE COURT: All right. Any objection to that time

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MS. DAVIDSON: Not to that. Your Honor, my fall calendar is very full. I have a trial starting on November 28th that is expected to go. That should go about four days.

I think the earliest date that would fit in my calendar would be December 12th or in the month of January.

THE COURT: All right. Let's see if we got something the week of December 11th.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: The 12th does appear to be open.

THE COURT: December 12th is available. Is that okay?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: December 12th, Your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.


THE COURT: All right. December 12th is the trial date.

The only problem that presents is if the motion on jurisdiction is a motion to dismiss the indictment for lack of jurisdiction, we're going to need basically 90 days -- up to 90 days from the hearing on that. And the reason is that this Court can't rule definitively on that issue.

In other words, I issue a ruling, but if you don't like it or if the government doesn't like it, both of you get a chance to object to the district judge, who will ultimately try the case.

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, I would suggest a January

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date, just because of this Court's calendar -- I mean, she's already notified us that she plans on filing a dispositive motion, and it would be better for the United States' calendar for it to be a January date.

THE COURT: Well, my point is, I don't want to give you too short a time to file that motion.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Right, right.

THE COURT: So if I give you enough time and then we set the hearing, then you'll need that additional time for me to rule.


THE COURT: Then if you like my ruling, they probably won't, and if they like my ruling, you probably won't. So invariably, when I rule on a dispositive motion, somebody objects to it. Doesn't matter what it is. Because somebody doesn't like the fact they lost. And then the district judge will ultimately rule on that.

So I'm thinking, let's do it this way. How much time do you think it will take you to get that motion filed? Can you get it filed in the -- go ahead.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I would state that it would take -- well, I wanted to be able to see what the prosecutor has -- she said seven days from today she would be able to get that to me.


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I would like to -- I can start

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preparing the motion, obviously, this week. So I would say at least two weeks to be able to file that motion over to -- with the Court and to get it over to -- because I still have to accommodate, get to my accommodations.

THE COURT: How about if I give you the usual three weeks and give you till -- a little bit longer --

September 29th?


THE COURT: That will give you all of September.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: All right.

THE COURT: And then responses will be due by October the 13th. And then I'm looking for a hearing -- motion hearing date, let's see, October 18th or 19th.

Ms. Davidson, how are you on those two dates?

MS. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, the 18th is better for me.

THE COURT: Okay. Morning or afternoon?

MS. DAVIDSON: We should probably start this in the morning.

THE COURT: All right. October 18th at 9:30.

Is that good for you, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf?


THE COURT: Okay. And then so we need to set a trial date sometime around January the 18th. So it won't be that much longer.

What do we have in that time frame, Ms. Stone?

Pave 81

Probably January 22nd, 3rd, or 4th -- 24th, somewhere that week?

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Uh-huh. Looks like January 23rd

or 30th.

THE COURT: January 23rd good for you, Ms. Davidson?

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: All right. January 23rd, 2018,

Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, is going to be your trial date.


THE COURT: That will give us plenty of time to rule, give you time or the government time to object, give the district judge time to rule, and still give you time to prepare for trial if it's going. Okay?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Is there a specific time that that's set for, or is that later that we set the --

THE COURT: The motion hearing will be set at 9:30. The trial will start at nine o'clock.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Nine o'clock. Thank you.

THE COURT: And there will probably be a pretrial conference before then.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Your Honor --


MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- you said it's nine o'clock start date on January 23rd. And I'm sure that I can probably get you to modify any conditions, because it takes a half hour to get

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here, and if I can't leave till eight in the morning.

THE COURT: Oh, sure. To come here, you can do that.


THE COURT: But if you leave at eight, you can easily get here by nine.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I don't know. I'll figure it out.

But I'll let you know.

THE COURT: I mean, that's an hour. Doesn't take an hour to get here from Oak Ridge. But if you need to leave little early that day, that's fine.


THE COURT: We'll certainly -- I'll modify that from the bench right now. You can leave that day at 7:30.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Okay. Thank you.

THE COURT: Okay. We're not trying to be difficult. We're actually trying to be accommodating and at the same time just have parameters, so I'm not -- I just know Judge Varlan starts at nine, I'm pretty sure.

So -- all right. We need a plea cutoff deadline.

How about sometime December 20th, 21st, something like that?

MS. DAVIDSON: Yes, Your Honor. I would typically ask for 30 days, and that is good with the United States.

THE COURT: All right. Well, the 23rd would be on a

Saturday, so I'm going to give her till December 21st.

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What that means is you have till December 21st to accept any kind of plea that the government might offer you.

After that, we're going on to trial. Okay? That's not to say you have to or that you ought to. I'm just saying that's the deadline, so...

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I understand.

THE COURT: What else? Anything else?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Did you set a pretrial conference? I'm sorry, because I missed that part.

THE COURT: I'm not setting one at this time. After the motion hearings, there probably will be a pretrial conference. My guess is the district judge may want to do that.

I'm thinking Judge Reeves did her own on the last pro se defendant case. Judge Varlan may. That's the only reason I'm not setting it. He may want me to do it. If he does, I will do it.

But, ordinarily, the lawyers know what we talk about at a pretrial conference. And usually we don't even have one. We just put down the standard order. And Mr. Lloyd can show you one of those.

But a lot of times when there's somebody representing themselves, we want to be sure everybody is on the same page, so that you're not thinking you're going to do X and it turns out you can't do X, you're going to do Y. So it helps to say, you know, here's what the rules are and here's how you do it.


Pave 84

make sure anything you want to do, you run by the judge and find out if that's going to fly or not and just -- just little things.

Like in this Court, for example, when you approach the jury and you're talking, I have a little piece of white carpet down there. Can't cross over the white carpet. Okay? So that's the end of how close you can get. So just those little details. How to use the equipment, things like that. How to pick a jury, those kind of things.

Okay. So those are the kind of things that we generally cover with somebody pro se like yourself, who wouldn't know that -- ordinarily how we operate here in this Court.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: But I'm not going to set it at this time. Or do you think I need to? Yeah. If we're going to set one, we'll set it at the motion hearing. Between now and then, I'll ask Judge Varlan probably what he prefers to do. Okay?

All right. Anything else we need to schedule that you can think of?

Anything else, Rachel, that we need to schedule for the order?

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I don't think so.

THE COURT: Ms. Davidson, anything else you want to schedule?

MS. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor. Thank you.

Page 85


THE COURT: Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, anything you want to

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Nothing that I can think of at this time, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Okay. So make sure you write down for sure that your motion hearing is October 18th at 9:30. That's the next time I will see you, and when you're required by your release order to be here. All right?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: I understand.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Any reciprocal discovery? Does that matter?

THE COURT: Do what?

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Sorry. Reciprocal discovery, if that matters.

THE COURT: Yeah. That's the same as the motion hearing at this point.

Reciprocal discovery, if you can explain that to her,

Mr. Lloyd.

The government is going to give you their discovery in seven days. There's a provision in the rules that talks about the defendant's discovery to the government, and it's called reciprocal discovery. And so your deadline won't be till the motion hearing, October the 18th. And you can read the rule yourself and see what it obligates you to provide, if anything.

And Mr. Lloyd can advise you as to where that rule is

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as well. Okay?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: Yeah. So when you file your motion for jurisdiction, I would anticipate that at least part of your argument will involve the voluminous UCC filings that have been made both on your behalf and your codefendant's behalf. You do not need to refile them. We have both sets. We don't need a third set or a fourth set. You may reference them by any way you want to, but, please, don't file that volume again.

Now, the only problem with that is, I actually struck the filing before, didn't I? Okay. We actually let the documents in. Just you and Mr. Beane both had somebody file something on your behalf alleging they were noting your appearance. Nobody can do that. People just can't appear for other people. That's just not allowed. So it's probably well intended, but it's just not legal.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: So just to be clear --

THE COURT: Uh-huh.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- the record still has the --

THE COURT: All the UCC filings, yes.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: -- the actual filings in my case.


THE COURT: And your trust documents and all such things.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: And you can feel free to reference them in your motion.


THE COURT: And any brief that goes with your motion.



MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: But you don't want to -- I'm just giving you permission to not file the whole package again.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Understood. Thank you.

THE COURT: Anything else, Ms. Davidson?

MS. DAVIDSON: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Anything else, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf?

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: No, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Mr. Lloyd?

MR. LLOYD: Your Honor, will the Court direct the clerk show me on the digital docket as standby or elbow counsel so that I will continue to receive copies of what's filed?

THE COURT: I would assume that's done as a matter of course.

Is that correct, Ms. Stone?

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: I believe so, but I'll make sure.

THE COURT: We'll make sure it's done.

MR. LLOYD: Thank you.

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THE COURT: We wouldn't you want to miss anything.

MR. LLOYD: Wouldn't want to miss anything.

THE COURT: All right. There being nothing further, let me commend the crowd out there, by the way. I told everybody you'd be fine, and you have been. Thank you very much.

And, Ms. Tucci-Jarraf, as soon as they can get you released from the facility, they will. Somebody will need to be out there to pick you up, but I assume that somebody's already made arrangements for that.

Good luck.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: And I shall see you on October 18th, and we'll read your filings between now and then. All right.

MS. TUCCI-JARRAF: Thank you.

THE COURT: All right. Stand in recess until 2:30?


THE COURT: 2:30.

THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: All rise. This honorable court stands in recess.

(Proceedings adjourned at 12:50 p.m.) 22


I, Rebekah M. Lockwood, RPR, CRR, do hereby certify
that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the
foregoing proceedings; and that the foregoing pages constitute a
true and complete computer-aided transcription of my original
stenographic notes to the best of my knowledge, skill, and

I further certify that I am not a relative, employee,
attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative
or employee of any of the parties' attorney or counsel connected
with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand at
Knoxville, Knox County, Tennessee this 5th day of September,
16 2017.

Official Court Reporter
United States District Court
Eastern District of Tennessee